Ron & Mike,
Excellent posts!
with Metta
Ben
Why Meditate?
Re: Why Meditate?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Polar Bear
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Re: Why Meditate?
Mike, I personally feel that you'd have to jump through a small hoop to say they're not contradictory. But maybe the hoop is just an illusion. I notice that much of this thread seems to be semantical misunderstandings and argument, up until page 4 or so at least
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
-
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Re: Why Meditate?
Hi retro - man, I love you - you write the most interesting and provoking stuff!retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ron,
Does this "important information" also involve a thorough grounding in the teachings of the Buddha?Ron Crouch wrote:There are just as many people though who don't have such a nice experience of it. And many really feel like they were suckered into something without being given all the important information up front. I don't worry about you. I worry about them. I see them all the time in my teaching practice.
I see risks in following a "meditation technique" which is designed to induce certain experiences, but in which the knowledge of the Dhamma that provides the context to these experiences is "outsourced" to a teacher. That "outsourcing" might be functional in a retreat situation or when there's regular ongoing contact with a teacher, but outside of that, the only person who is with the practitioner 24/7, is the practitioner themselves. If they understand the Dhamma, from the variety of different perspectives and angles from which the Buddha saw fit to teach it, perhaps they would be more equipped to manage the transition?
Possibly then, it's not a case of deterring those who are not hard-core, manly and committed enough to get to the end, but in encouraging the gradual instruction of the kind Mike mentioned above first, so they have a solid grounding in the fundamentals of the Dhamma before attempting practices which might otherwise induce "dark nights"? (such fundamentals including, Right Effort, mudita and other quite elementary things that seem very useful in the specified situation). There's a great many lay people who have benefited over the centuries from the wisdom of the Buddha... it seems a shame to deter the current generation from mental cultivation, on account of such things.
Metta,
Retro.
I have to say that "outsourcing" is a likely a big problem in many dharma scenes, but I don't think you and I agree on what to do about it. My take on it is that "outsourcing" occurs whenever people place their complete faith in a teacher, a religion, a technique, a particular sutta, etc, instead of being very very pragmatic about what they are directly experiencing on the path and what causes and conditions (to use a bit of dharma-speak) led to it. A teacher is more of a coach and a sounding-board to make sense of what is happening and refine technique, and not ever a place to outsource ones' own experience. That's where things get cultish to me and give me the heebe-jeebies.
The goal is to ground the practice in one's own reality, not in any ideal, even if the ideal comes from a great teacher or a great sutta. In short, people need to get real. They need to get way more practical about this stuff and how it directly impacts them. Way too many people intellectualize and get lost in the minutiae of language and pali translations, and on the other hand, way too many people in lost in the feeling of belonging and compassion that comes from teachers and sanghas. What is needed is a middle-way (more dharma-speak). And that middle begins squarely in ones' own direct experience.
If one sees that the source of suffering is none other than oneself and the conditions that lead to either suffering or liberation are in one's own hands, then sila is a forgone conclusion. The key is getting people to see that it is in their hands.
Lastly, just let me say - "manly" - really?
P.S. For anyone hung up on my admonition to not meditate if you don't want to become enlightened let me point out that I really love meditation and while I am all in favor of warning people away from meditation if all they want is a self-improvment project, if what you want is liberation (and I suspect almost everyone on this forum does) then meditate all the time! Don't stop! On the cushion or off, cultivate insight and be mindful. Just know it might be rough for the "self" - but no problem right? It's a fiction anyway.
- Polar Bear
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Re: Why Meditate?
I think it's clear something has gone wrong. The eightfold path starts with right view, everything else is developed simultaneously, and if you're not doing that, you're supposed to ask someone skilled in the area you're lacking in to help you. People need to be able to concentrate in order to gain proper insight. If people had true insight into dukkha, then they wouldn't create more dukkha for themselves by worrying about it, it's all impermanent, and believe it or not, and I heard this from a pali scholar so it's not personal knowledge unfortunately, but impermanence doesn't translate quite properly into english. Anicca and Anatta have a certain amount of positive connotation to them in the pali, they're supposed to be a little liberating just from hearing about them. I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST SERIOUS POINTS BUDDHIST PRACTICE FACES RIGHT NOW, PEOPLE NEED TO LEARN TO BE CALM AND COLLECTED/CONCENTRATED WHILE THEY'RE MEDITATING.Ron Crouch wrote:
The issue rests on the kind of meditation a person is doing. In classical buddhism there is a distinction made between "wet" and "dry" insight, which is the difference between the insight knowledges (nanas) experienced directly after deep concentration ("wet" = jhana) or without deep concentration ("dry" = no jhana). If you are doing it wet, then the dukkha nanas (dark night stages) seem like a breeze, a mild bit of turbulence in an otherwise smooth flight. If you are doing it dry however, then the dukkha nanas can really rock your world - and not in a good way. In the old texts and commentaries they divide it up into these two types as if they were all or nothing, but in truth almost everyone mixes it up and so the ambiguous answer of "it depends." Essentially, it depends on how deep your concentration is and how well you use it to move through the insight stages. So, while everyone will go through the insights into suffering in one form or another, how you experience it depends a lot on your concentration. Stronger concentration equals less difficulty.
Hope that helps.
"
I'm no expert, but anybody with common sense can see my point. Samadhi and Sati go hand in hand and vipassana is a quality that means clear seeing it's not a vehicle for liberation from what I've read so far and there are certainly some Bhikkhus who would agree with me. Thus, using simple common sense, I deem the Bhikkhus deeming samadhi/samatha and sati/vipassana to be something developed in tandem. Let's not create unnecessary dichotomies where it's best if there were none.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
-
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Re: Why Meditate?
polarbuddha101 wrote:
I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST SERIOUS POINTS BUDDHIST PRACTICE FACES RIGHT NOW, PEOPLE NEED TO LEARN TO BE CALM AND COLLECTED/CONCENTRATED WHILE THEY'RE MEDITATING.
I'm no expert, but anybody with common sense can see my point. Samadhi and Sati go hand in hand and vipassana is a quality that means clear seeing it's not a vehicle for liberation from what I've read so far and there are certainly some Bhikkhus who would agree with me. Thus, using simple common sense, I deem the Bhikkhus deeming samadhi/samatha and sati/vipassana to be something developed in tandem. Let's not create unnecessary dichotomies where it's best if there were none.
I think we agree on this, and I emphasize concentration for all my students before developing insight (for reasons that I think I've made clear).
Maybe this is inappropriate for this forum, and Ben can chime in and let me know if I'm crossing a line in this particular online community, but I would be much more interested in hearing about your personal experience with the mix of concentration and insight than any thoughts about it. When you are calm and collected and concentrated during meditation what happens?
Please keep in mind that I know this is a personal question, so I do not ask it in any challenging way. I know how important concentration is for fruitful insight and any personal experiences you (or others) would feel safe in sharing would be wonderful examples...
Re: Why Meditate?
Hi PB,
I don't see anyone arguing against this here. That's what most of us are trying to do. However, it's not always easy...
Mike
No need to shout...polarbuddha101 wrote: I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST SERIOUS POINTS BUDDHIST PRACTICE FACES RIGHT NOW, PEOPLE NEED TO LEARN TO BE CALM AND COLLECTED/CONCENTRATED WHILE THEY'RE MEDITATING.
I don't see anyone arguing against this here. That's what most of us are trying to do. However, it's not always easy...
Mike
- tiltbillings
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Re: Why Meditate?
And I do not know of anyone who teaches Buddhist meditation that would say differently.polarbuddha101 wrote:Thus, using simple common sense, I deem the Bhikkhus deeming samadhi/samatha and sati/vipassana to be something developed in tandem. Let's not create unnecessary dichotomies where it's best if there were none.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- retrofuturist
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- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Why Meditate?
Greetings Ron,
This holds true for everything from "the minutiae of language and pali translations" to "teachers and sanghas". All potentially useful, all potentially distracting - depends what's done with it.
Metta,
Retro.
Well said. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Nanavira Thera...Ron wrote:The goal is to ground the practice in one's own reality, not in any ideal, even if the ideal comes from a great teacher or a great sutta. In short, people need to get real. They need to get way more practical about this stuff and how it directly impacts them.
Indeed it's true that various sources of information and help available can either be applied directly as a means of understanding one's experience, or serve as distractions and grounds for speculation. It is pretty self-evident which use of knowledge is superior.Nanavira Thera wrote:Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching. But human kind, it seems, cannot bear very much reality: men, for the most part, draw back in alarm and dismay from this vertiginous direct view of being and seek refuge in distractions.
This holds true for everything from "the minutiae of language and pali translations" to "teachers and sanghas". All potentially useful, all potentially distracting - depends what's done with it.
Ron Crouch wrote:Lastly, just let me say - "manly" - really?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- Polar Bear
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Re: Why Meditate?
Mike, I apologize, the caps lock was meant for emphasis not to indicate volume or anger or frustration.
Tilt, I'm glad you feel that way but I've read things that seem to indicate otherwise. So it's just what I've gathered indirectly. If there isn't this problem then awesome.
Tilt, I'm glad you feel that way but I've read things that seem to indicate otherwise. So it's just what I've gathered indirectly. If there isn't this problem then awesome.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
Re: Why Meditate?
Not for any of those lower beings who are female, eh?Retrofuturist said: it's not a case of deterring those who are not hard-core, manly and committed enough to get to the end
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: Why Meditate?
Enough of the battle of the sexes...
I'm off to watch a rugby game for a while, but I'd be interested to see Ron's (and others') take on what I posted from the Visuddhimagga and Mahasi Sayadaw above:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p188867" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
I'm off to watch a rugby game for a while, but I'd be interested to see Ron's (and others') take on what I posted from the Visuddhimagga and Mahasi Sayadaw above:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p188867" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
- tiltbillings
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Re: Why Meditate?
Do believe everything you read? There is classically a division between the "wet" and the "dry" approach, but the reality is that in actual practice the division is more apparent than real. What is called vipassana meditation cultivates and requires considerable samatha qualities. This is not from reading, but from working with a number of teachers of "vipassana meditation." I think we need to be careful here in assuming that the classical wet/dry descriptions are hard and fast.polarbuddha101 wrote:Tilt, I'm glad you feel that way but I've read things that seem to indicate otherwise. So it's just what I've gathered indirectly. If there isn't this problem then awesome.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- Polar Bear
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- Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Re: Why Meditate?
No, I certainly don't believe everything I read, but I do take it into consideration. Anyways, like I said, awesome!tiltbillings wrote:Do believe everything you read? There is classically a division between the "wet" and the "dry" approach, but the reality is that in actual practice the division is more apparent than real. What is called vipassana meditation cultivates and requires considerable samatha qualities. This is not from reading, but from working with a number of teachers of "vipassana meditation." I think we need to be careful here in assuming that the classical wet/dry descriptions are hard and fast.polarbuddha101 wrote:Tilt, I'm glad you feel that way but I've read things that seem to indicate otherwise. So it's just what I've gathered indirectly. If there isn't this problem then awesome.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
- retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?
Greetings Chris,
... in case the humour was only evident to myself (as is often the case), the "manly" aspect was a reference to those intrepid explorers, wandering through dark nights, fighting demons, wrestling kilesas and ferocious beasts with their bare hands, in order to impress their lady-friends and comrades... those doing manly things in a manly way. (i.e. it was actually a subtle dig at manliness itself, much like the following clip)
Metta,
Retro.
... in case the humour was only evident to myself (as is often the case), the "manly" aspect was a reference to those intrepid explorers, wandering through dark nights, fighting demons, wrestling kilesas and ferocious beasts with their bare hands, in order to impress their lady-friends and comrades... those doing manly things in a manly way. (i.e. it was actually a subtle dig at manliness itself, much like the following clip)
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- tiltbillings
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Re: Why Meditate?
A nice description of the dark night of the soul. It actually takes a fair amount of practice/work to confront the abyss, which is really what bhavana is about.retrofuturist wrote:Well said. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Nanavira Thera...Nanavira Thera wrote:Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching. But human kind, it seems, cannot bear very much reality: men, for the most part, draw back in alarm and dismay from this vertiginous direct view of being and seek refuge in distractions.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723