He trains himself...relinquishment

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Source
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Post by Source » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:55 am

Hello Cittasanto

Do you believe in rebirth? I trust we have probably met before. Obviously, I disagree Dmytro has shown anything convincingly & conclusively.

I can only recommend to study the mind. Buddha taught with feeling as a condition, craving (defilement) arises. Have you ever experienced craving, directly, without any pleasure? If so, craving & defilement are very disturbing states of mind. But when human beings engage in pleasure, the feelings of pleasure "cover" the craving.

Drug addiction is an example easy to understand. The pleasure, the high, is enjoyable. The craving symptons, of the addiction, are intolerable. But human beings engage in pleasures because, when doing so, they can only feel the pleasure but not the craving. In summary, where there is pleasure (in one not fully enlightened) there is also underlying craving.

The Buddha taught:
With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it, or remains fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession (underlying tendency) gets obsessed.

If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats one's breast, becomes distraught, then one's resistance-obsession (underlying tendency) gets obsessed.

If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession (underlying tendency) gets obsessed.

MN 148
Where there is feeling, there is underlying tendencies (anusaya). Therefore, when rapture & happiness are calmed (step 8), it is only natural there may remain underlying defilements, just as a drug addict experiences craving symptoms when their pleasure high passes away.

This answers your question about rapture happening before the mind. And when any underlying defilements cease, this answers your question about how the mind becomes glad (step 10), concentrated (step 11) and liberated (step 12).
And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

"When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released.

MN 10
Cittasanto wrote:and can you provide a reference to show the Saññas are only consecutive steps?
I already did. Please re-read them. Anicca sanna (perception of impermanence) gives rise to dukkha sanna, then anatta sanna, then dispassion (viraga) sanna, etc. Without the perception of anicca, dukkha & anatta, how can dispassion and patinissagga (relinquishment) occur?

The fundamental lawfulness of Dhamma is established in cause & effect. Consecutive steps naturally follows this natural lawfulness. Please keep in mind the instruction the 5th arahant disciple Assaji provided to Upatissa (Sariputta).

With metta :ugeek:
In response, the Elder Assaji uttered this stanza:

"Of all those things that from a cause arise,
Tathagata the cause thereof has told;
And how they cease to be, that too he tells,
This is the doctrine of the Great Recluse."
Last edited by Source on Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
Anupubbikatha: teaching step-by-step, in proper sequence; he teaches the principles or subject matter in order, from easy to abstruse, shallow to profound, in logical progression. (A.III.184)

Source
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Post by Source » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:28 am

Cittasanto wrote:although if sequential why is rapture happening before the mind (9-12 in the list) is turned to, where the concentration, of the sort you use as proof, begins (no.11)?
To add, there are different degrees of concentration, thus the various jhanas. Your question is easily answered from stock passages. Please note, below, the Buddha mentions qualities of mind, in detail, after rapture. In general, most of the Buddha's teachings are sequential, such as the Eightfold Path, etc.

A sutta often lacking in sequentiality is the Satipatthana Sutta. This results in some scholars, such as Bhante Sujato, questioning its authenticity :geek:
Unflagging persistence was aroused in me and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain.

When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives.

MN 19

In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being.

MN 117
These philosophical suppositions, inherited from the tradition and largely unexamined, underlie and inform the major schools of contemporary Theravāda meditation. Meditators practice precisely in order to see the elements of ‘ultimate reality’. The prime source text for this approach is the ‘Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta’, which we suggest would be better called the ‘Piltdown Sutta’. Is it too much to hope that the revelation that this is one of the latest and least authentic of all the texts in the Nikāyas will cause such meditation schools to question their own assumptions and methods?"

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Anupubbikatha: teaching step-by-step, in proper sequence; he teaches the principles or subject matter in order, from easy to abstruse, shallow to profound, in logical progression. (A.III.184)

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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Source wrote:Hello Cittasanto
Do you believe in rebirth? I trust we have probably met before. Obviously, I disagree Dmytro has shown anything convincingly & conclusively.
you are a new member here, we have not met before in this life. and your questioning my belief in this area shows we do not know each other!
he has shown another sequence, or did the Buddha not teach that?

Certain descriptions are certainly sequential, but this does not mean all are, and things do not happen in other orders, which has been shown, and the DO list itself has feeling as a requisite condition, within name and form, of the six sense bases also, not to mention that the DO sequence is not always in the same order or possessing the same links in every occurrence.
Where there is feeling, there is underlying tendencies (anusaya). Therefore, when rapture & happiness are calmed (step 8), it is only natural there may remain underlying defilements, just as a drug addict experiences craving symptoms when their pleasure high passes away.

This answers your question about rapture happening before the mind. And when any underlying defilements cease, this answers your question about how the mind becomes glad (step 10), concentrated (step 11) and liberated (step 12).
miss something? [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.'
Cittasanto wrote:and can you provide a reference to show the Saññas are only consecutive steps?
I already did. Please re-read them. Anicca sanna (perception of impermanence) gives rise to dukkha sanna, then anatta sanna, then dispassion (viraga) sanna, etc. Without the perception of anicca, dukkha & anatta, how can dispassion and patinissagga (relinquishment) occur?
you just gave a list not a reference saying they follow on from one another, apart from your personal opinion.
The fundamental lawfulness of Dhamma is established in cause & effect. Consecutive steps naturally follows this natural lawfulness. Please keep in mind the instruction the 5th arahant disciple Assaji provided to Upatissa (Sariputta).
of mastery yes, the training is step by step, but, that doesn't mean these things always follow the order of mastering them, as has been shown.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:29 pm

I am quoting your first post here to remind you what you are saying, and showing the sequence of a mastered state such as Jhana is no proof.
Source wrote:
nameless wrote:Thanissaro Bhikkhu states that
Another point to keep in mind in understanding the maps of the practice is that they list the steps of meditation, not in the order in which they will be experienced, but in the order in which they can be mastered. There are cases, for instance, where one will feel rapture in the course of the practice (step 5 in the practice of breath meditation) before one is able to breath in and out sensitive to the entire body (step 3).
thanissaro is obviously incorrect here. rapture is felt due to tranquilisation of the body. momentary rapture may be felt in the course of practise but only due to some sort of tranquilisation. even if due to a mental catharthis, this remains a tranquilistion/liberation in respect to the body. when the breath/body/hindrances are fully tranquilised, the factors of jhana (rapture & happiness) arise.

in summary, the steps of anapanasati are listed in the order in which they will be experienced. relinquishment happens after the insight meditation of the 13th step

:ugeek:
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Post by Source » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:51 pm

Cittasanto wrote:I am quoting your first post here to remind you what you are saying, and showing the sequence of a mastered state such as Jhana is no proof.
Hello again, Cittasanto

The sequence of jhana is strong proof (on an intellectual basis) that contemplation of the subtle qualities of mind occurs after rapture. The phrase: "the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability" correlates well with the stock phrase about contemplation of mind from MN 10. If there is rapture in the mind, the subtle qualities of mind cannot be discerned clearly because the feeling of rapture dominates the mind. The mind must be cleansed of rapture & happiness for its underlying qualities to be clearly discerned.

In adddition, consider the 6th & 7th fetters, i.e., lust for rupa jhana & arupa jhana. This is futher proof that subtle defilements (underlying tendencies) of mind, as objects of contemplation, occur after rapture & happiness occur.

When the breath is sufficiently calmed, i.e., when calming of the breath is fully mastered, rapture arises. When the calming of rapture is fully mastered, contemplation of the mind arises. Thus to separate sequential arising from "mastery" has no basis. Thanissaro's logic here, again, is unconvincing. As I posted, in terms of anapanasati, there must be some calming of the breath/body for rapture to arise. This is natural law. The feeling must arise in relation to a sense object, namely, the experience of some calm & concentration.

But if rapture is arising based on any other cause in meditation, such as being inspired by teachings, inspired by a guru or having a spontaneous mental catharthis, this is not the rapture described in anapanasati. The rapture described in anapanasati arises with the calming of the breath/body as its proximate cause.

With metta :ugeek:
Anupubbikatha: teaching step-by-step, in proper sequence; he teaches the principles or subject matter in order, from easy to abstruse, shallow to profound, in logical progression. (A.III.184)

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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Post by Source » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:04 pm

amtross wrote:isn't it possible that partial calming could produce a lower level of rapture?
Yes, Amtross, I already pointed this out. Partial calming could produce a lower level of rapture. But full calming will produce full rapture. In other words, rapture always followings the calming of the breath/body.

With metta :smile:
Anupubbikatha: teaching step-by-step, in proper sequence; he teaches the principles or subject matter in order, from easy to abstruse, shallow to profound, in logical progression. (A.III.184)

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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:32 pm

Source wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:I am quoting your first post here to remind you what you are saying, and showing the sequence of a mastered state such as Jhana is no proof.
Hello again, Cittasanto

The sequence of jhana is strong proof (on an intellectual basis) that contemplation of the subtle qualities of mind occurs after rapture. The phrase: "the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability" correlates well with the stock phrase about contemplation of mind from MN 10. If there is rapture in the mind, the subtle qualities of mind cannot be discerned clearly because the feeling of rapture dominates the mind. The mind must be cleansed of rapture & happiness for its underlying qualities to be clearly discerned.
who said it can not happen?
your evidence does not show that rapture is due to concentration, which the Jhana formulation pointedly shows (and re-enforces the possition you have claimed tobe against).
In adddition, consider the 6th & 7th fetters, i.e., lust for rupa jhana & arupa jhana. This is futher proof that subtle defilements (underlying tendencies) of mind, as objects of contemplation, occur after rapture & happiness occur.
doesn't mean rapture is dependent upon that for it to occur.
When the breath is sufficiently calmed, i.e., when calming of the breath is fully mastered, rapture arises. When the calming of rapture is fully mastered, contemplation of the mind arises. Thus to separate sequential arising from "mastery" has no basis. Thanissaro's logic here, again, is unconvincing. As I posted, in terms of anapanasati, there must be some calming of the breath/body for rapture to arise. This is natural law. The feeling must arise in relation to a sense object, namely, the experience of some calm & concentration.

and what about the whole body?
But if rapture is arising based on any other cause in meditation, such as being inspired by teachings, inspired by a guru or having a spontaneous mental catharthis, this is not the rapture described in anapanasati. The rapture described in anapanasati arises with the calming of the breath/body as its proximate cause.
Well I disagree the buddha would of used the same term to refer to different experiences, as I pointed out, the Sequence can be viewed as individual things, as initial instruction can be applied to any tetrad, or individual aspect of the list as well as in sequence, and from any of the initial three tetrads or areas therein apply the fourth tetrad.
the satipatthana sutta can actually be seen as the application of the Dhamma Tetrad found in the Anapanasati sutta to the areas of the other tetrads, as one interpretation.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:33 pm

Source = Element aka Nick the double nicker. bye-bye
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:48 pm

Have I been part of the Element experiment!
OH were are the cameras

just for fun
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Assaji
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Post by Assaji » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:47 am

Hi,
Source wrote:in numerous places the Buddha said rapture arises when learning there is a path to freedom from suffering. this is similar to the rapture of when receiving a Xmas gift. where as the rapture of anapanasati is the rapture arising as a result of concentration, as follows:
Unflagging persistence was aroused in me and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal....

MN 19
MN 19, Dvedhavitakka sutta, is an example of development of Seven Awakening Factors.

The passage you cited shows a transition from persistence (viriya) to rapture (piti).

Best wishes, Dmytro

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