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He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:32 pm
by Cal
Just reading this sutta :-
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Describing how a monk should meditate on the breath, there are typical repetitions in the format
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'
(paragraph 6)

I'm just interested in practical terms how one actually does this. Presumably each of the list of focuses given by the Buddha (inconstancy, dispassion, cessation etc.) are a focus for a single, whole meditation session? I guess I'm not sure how one focuses on relinquishment and still concentrates on the breath. Generally (and possibly incorrectly) I've assumed that when one wants to use mindfulness of breathing to lead to contemplation, one eventually drops the breath as focus and brings another subject to mind as the focus.

How do people use the guidance in this sutta?

Cal

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:46 pm
by Sam Vara
Hi Cal,
I'm just interested in practical terms how one actually does this. Presumably each of the list of focuses given by the Buddha (inconstancy, dispassion, cessation etc.) are a focus for a single, whole meditation session?
For what my own personal experience is worth, I started making faster progress when I followed the guidance of a monk and focused on any or all of these in a single session. If the mind would rather settle on one wholesome topic rather than another, then I find it OK just to allow this to happen. (This was at Chithurst, by the way - I saw your location!)

In this context, I like this sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:14 pm
by santa100
Actually you can use the breath as the topic for insight. The breath comes in and out, in and out,...that's "inconstancy". The in-breath's "fading away" to give rise to the out-breath. The in-breath then "ceases" to give rise to the out-breath. The in-breath then was "relinquished", etc.. Insight is consistently developed, first based on the breath and then eventually extended to all other phenomena in life..

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:39 pm
by Aloka
I wonder if this might be helpful, Cal.


http://www.dhammatalks.net/Articles/Aja ... Breath.htm



:anjali:

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:53 am
by Cittasanto
Hi Cal
Take a deep breath in, hold it for a moment, now exhale, notice the relaxation the softening, the relinquishing of the breath!
Personally I would say they can be combined in every moment of grasping, not just one session for one 'focus'. one sees the uncertainty of something being a stable foundation for happiness so is unsatisfactory, dispassion arises and so does the cessation of its allure.

breathing in focusing upon relinquishment is seeing that something is needed yet not satisfactory, so no passion rises for it. like with food, breathing, or even friendship.

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:43 am
by RMSmith
Great info. Thanks for this. :clap:

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:27 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
Cal wrote:I'm just interested in practical terms how one actually does this.
Find what is unsatisfactory and let go of it.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:00 am
by ground
You may go directly to relinquishment and skip unnecessary detours ... if unnecessary

Kind regards

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:01 pm
by Cal
Many thanks for all the varied suggestions.

Cal :anjali:

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:30 pm
by nameless
Here Thanissaro Bhikkhu states that
Another point to keep in mind in understanding the maps of the practice is that they list the steps of meditation, not in the order in which they will be experienced, but in the order in which they can be mastered. There are cases, for instance, where one will feel rapture in the course of the practice (step 5 in the practice of breath meditation) before one is able to breath in and out sensitive to the entire body (step 3). In such cases, it is important not to jump to any conclusions as to one's level of attainment, or to feel that one has bypassed the need to master an earlier step. Instead — when several different experiences arise together in a jumble, as they often do — one should use the maps to tell which experience to focus on first for the sake of developing one's meditation as a skill.

One qualification here is that it is not necessary to master all the levels of concentration in order to gain Awakening. The relationship of concentration to discernment is a controversial issue, which we will cover in the following section, but here we may simply note that many texts [§§173-74] point out that the experience of the first jhāna can be a sufficient basis for the discernment leading to Awakening. The same holds true for the first four steps in breath meditation, which constitute one of the alternative ways of developing the body in and of itself as a frame of reference [§30]. In this case, one's practice of breath meditation would jump from a mastery of step 4 straight to step 13, skipping the intervening steps. In fact, beginning with step 4, it is possible to jump directly to 13 from any of the steps, and from there to progress all the way to Awakening.

The fact that the higher stages are unnecessary in some cases, however, does not mean that they are superfluous. Many people, as they develop the skill of their meditation, will find that their minds naturally go to deeper levels of stillness with no liberating insight arising. For them, the maps are valuable aids for a number of reasons. To begin with, the maps can help indicate what does and does not count as Awakening. When one arrives at a new, more refined level of awareness in one's practice, it is easy to assume that one has attained the goal. Comparing one's experience to the maps, however, can show that the experience is simply a higher level of concentration. Furthermore, awareness of the distinct levels can help one review them after attaining them, so that in the course of trying to master them, moving from one level to another, one can begin to gain insight into the element of will and fabrication that goes into them. This insight can then provide an understanding into the pattern of cause and effect in the mind and, as passage §182 shows, can lead to a sense of dispassion and ultimately to Awakening.

However, the maps should not be used to plan one's practice in advance. This is the message of §162, which makes the point that one should not try to use one's knowledge of the various levels of the practice to force one's way through them. In other words, one should not try to concoct a particular state of jhāna based on ideas picked up from the maps. On reaching a particular level, one should not be in a hurry to go to the next. Instead, one should familiarize oneself with that level of mind, perfecting one's mastery; eventually that state of concentration will ripen naturally into the next level. To continue the image of the passage, one will find that there is no need to jump to another pasture to taste different grass and water, for the new grass and water will develop right in one's own pasture.
There's more detail in the essay itself, which might be worth reading. Relinquishment itself is the very last step, so maybe no need to think about it too much at this point, at least from Thanissaro's point of view.

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:49 pm
by Source
nameless wrote:Thanissaro Bhikkhu states that
Another point to keep in mind in understanding the maps of the practice is that they list the steps of meditation, not in the order in which they will be experienced, but in the order in which they can be mastered. There are cases, for instance, where one will feel rapture in the course of the practice (step 5 in the practice of breath meditation) before one is able to breath in and out sensitive to the entire body (step 3).
thanissaro is obviously incorrect here. rapture is felt due to tranquilisation of the body. momentary rapture may be felt in the course of practise but only due to some sort of tranquilisation. even if due to a mental catharthis, this remains a tranquilistion/liberation in respect to the body. when the breath/body/hindrances are fully tranquilised, the factors of jhana (rapture & happiness) arise.

in summary, the steps of anapanasati are listed in the order in which they will be experienced. relinquishment happens after the insight meditation of the 13th step

:ugeek:

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:50 am
by Assaji
Hi,
Source wrote: thanissaro is obviously incorrect here. rapture is felt due to tranquilisation of the body. momentary rapture may be felt in the course of practise but only due to some sort of tranquilisation. even if due to a mental catharthis, this remains a tranquilistion/liberation in respect to the body. when the breath/body/hindrances are fully tranquilised, the factors of jhana (rapture & happiness) arise.
Buddha would agree with Ven. Thanissaro:

"And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
in summary, the steps of anapanasati are listed in the order in which they will be experienced. relinquishment happens after the insight meditation of the 13th step
The methods of anapanasati are grouped by the four ways of establishing remembrance (satipatthana), and hence they are not consecutive steps.
Bhikkhu Bodhi explains this well.

Relinquishment is one of the seven "selective recognitions" (sanna) to be practiced:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 834#p40805" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,

Dmytro

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:59 pm
by Source
Dmytro wrote:And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.
hello Dmytro

the quote above is not within context. in numerous places the Buddha said rapture arises when learning there is a path to freedom from suffering. this is similar to the rapture of when receiving a Xmas gift. where as the rapture of anapanasati is the rapture arising as a result of concentration, as follows:
Unflagging persistence was aroused in me and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal....

MN 19
Dmytro wrote:The methods of anapanasati are grouped by the four ways of establishing remembrance (satipatthana), and hence they are not consecutive steps.
Bhikkhu Bodhi explains this well. Relinquishment is one of the seven "selective recognitions" (sanna) to be practiced:
your explanation here does not explain or demonstrate your point. the seven sannas are the same as the last tetrad of ananapanasati

the seven sannas (aniccanupassana, dukkhaanupassana, anattaanupassana, khayaanupassana, viraagaanupassana, nirodhaanupassana, patinissaggaanupassana)
are consecutive steps, as detailed in the discources

with metta :ugeek:
The knowledge of destruction with respect to destruction has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge of destruction? 'Emancipation' should be the reply.

"Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply.

"Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply.

"Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply.

"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply.

SN 12.23
"Now what do you think of this, O monks? Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?"

"Impermanent, O Lord."

"Now, what is impermanent, is that unsatisfactory or satisfactory?"

"Unsatisfactory, O Lord."

"Now, what is impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change, is it proper to regard it as: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self'?"

"Indeed, not that, O Lord."

"O monks, the well-instructed noble disciple, seeing thus, gets wearied of form, gets wearied of feeling, gets wearied of perception, gets wearied of mental formations, gets wearied of consciousness. Being wearied he becomes passion-free. In his freedom from passion, he is emancipated. Being emancipated, there is the knowledge that he is emancipated. He knows: 'birth is exhausted, lived is the holy life, what had to be done is done, there is nothing more of this becoming.'"

SN 22.59

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:06 am
by Cittasanto
Hi Source,
I doubt we have met before so Hi & welcome to DW!

Dmytro has shown that the list is not necessarily sequential.
although if sequential why is rapture happening before the mind (9-12 in the list) is turned to, where the concentration, of the sort you use as proof, begins (no.11)?

just to note there is a instruction outside of the 16 areas & four tetrads which ends with "Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out" essentially this supports the idea that each area can be taken individually, or as a group (tetrad or whole).

and can you provide a reference to show the Saññas are only consecutive steps?

Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:25 am
by amtross
I think Thanissaro Bhikkhu's point is that you can experience Rapture before you have mastered the prior steps. Assuming some sort of Bodily calming is a prerequisite for rapture (and I'm not sure this is true) then isn't it possible that partial calming could produce a lower level of rapture? I imagine most, if not all, folks who sit down to meditate on a regular basis can calm the body at least to some extent. But, mastering the calming of the bodily formation requires some practice.