Questions about mn 111, Anupada Sutta

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amtross
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Questions about mn 111, Anupada Sutta

Post by amtross » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:38 pm

I have some questions about parts of the Anupada Sutta.
1. Did Sariputta discern the mental qualities in the order listed?
2. Did he discern each of them arise, remain and subside before discerning the next one.
3. Is each mental quality dependant on the one before (hence "One after Another")?
4. aren't "Rapture" and "Pleasure" the same thing as "feeling"? if so, why is the generic mental quality of "feeling" listed after the specific mental qualities of "Rapture" and "pleasure"

from MN 111 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

Many thanks and much respect :bow:
sean

santa100
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Re: Questions about mn 111, Anupada Sutta

Post by santa100 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:51 am

If we refer to MN 111 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , notice it says: "For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight into mental qualities one after another", so it seems to indicate a sequential process in term of the life cycle of each one: arise, remain, and subside. It doesn't necessarily mean that the mental factors have to appear in the exact order as mentioned, for example, contact doesn't have to follow after singleness-of-mind. So, imho, it'll be No for your question 1 and Yes for question 2.

For question 3, I'd also think No because notice that there're 12 mental factors that are repeated again and again for each jhanic stage: singleness of mind(1), contact(2), feeling(3), perception(4), intention(5), consciousness(6), desire(7), decision(8), persistence(9), mindfulness(10), equanimity(11), and attention(12). The order which they're listed doesn't seems to indicate one has to depend on its previous one.

For question 4, although both rapture and pleasure are mental factors, they belong to different sub-groups beneath the mental factors umbrella. Rapture belongs to the volitional formation group(sankhara), while pleasure is one among 3 types of feeling (painful, neutral, pleasure) (vedana).

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ground
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Re: Questions about mn 111, Anupada Sutta

Post by ground » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:25 am

amtross wrote:4. aren't "Rapture" and "Pleasure" the same thing as "feeling"? if so, why is the generic mental quality of "feeling" listed after the specific mental qualities of "Rapture" and "pleasure"
I would say that feeling - as it is defined as vedana in the suttas - is the cause of "Rapture" and "Pleasure". Vedana (primary phenomenon) arises immediately upon contact. Piti and sukkha are secondary phenomena in the causal context of concentration and sustained thought (contact of mind consciousness).
Unfortunately there is a great variety as to translating the terms "piti" and "sukkha" by English speaking translators. "pleasure" here is misleading since it is often associated with sensual desire (sense pleasure) which is a hindrance to jhana.


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Nyana
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Re: Questions about mn 111, Anupada Sutta

Post by Nyana » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:40 am

TMingyur wrote:I would say that feeling - as it is defined as vedana in the suttas - is the cause of "Rapture" and "Pleasure". Vedana (primary phenomenon) arises immediately upon contact. Piti and sukkha are secondary phenomena in the causal context of concentration and sustained thought (contact of mind consciousness).
Every vedanā is an experience of either bodily or mental pain (dukkha) or pleasure (sukha) or neither-pain-nor-pleasure (adukkhamasukha). There is no generic "vedanā" other than these experiences.
TMingyur wrote:Unfortunately there is a great variety as to translating the terms "piti" and "sukkha" by English speaking translators. "pleasure" here is misleading since it is often associated with sensual desire (sense pleasure) which is a hindrance to jhana.
The distinction is between carnal pleasure (sensual desire) and the non-carnal pleasure of jhāna. The former is a hindrance; the latter is to be developed as part of the path.

Gena1480
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Re: Questions about mn 111, Anupada Sutta

Post by Gena1480 » Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:06 am

Nana
dukkha is mental or physical discomfort
sukkha is mental or physical comfort
in first Jhana there is mental comfort from confidence, since doubt is compressed.
in second Jhana concentration is on what has been compressed, compressing discomfort
since concentration is more intense, there is a drop of verbal thoughts since there is no verbal thoughts, there is more comfort
as soon as you look for comfort you concentration is broken and you are back to first Jhana
for the third Jhana the comfort would need to be avoided using concentration
by avoiding comfort using concentration that is third Jhana
and by standing between avoiding and comfort using concentration
you are not in comfort or discomfort , this is 4 four Jhana and is purity of equanimity
since you are in not in conflict zone, thats why it is pure
since you are between, that is equanimity. One does not bother another
how else you would you experience 3 types of feeling if not by practicing Jhana
mindfulness of feeling yes that has to come later ones you have a base about feeling
and you can go do insight meditation, such is this feeling, such it is origin, such it's cessation, such its path to cessation.
metta mitta

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