Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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DooDoot
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Re: Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:49 amI'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning.
Obviously.
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:49 amAt some point one has to abandon the hindrances.
Yes. Prior to Satipatthana, as most of the suttas say. :roll:

Regardless, that this point is in the 4th Satipatthana is illogical. Merely the 1st Satipatthana cannot be done with hindrances. :smile:
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Re: Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

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DooDoot wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:00 am ....
Good luck with your practice.

:heart:
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Volo
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Re: Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

Post by Volo »

4 satipatthanas can be practiced on different levels. Sometimes abandonment of hindrances is put before 4 satipatthanas, but Buddha also said, that 4 satipatthanas are to be developed for the abandonment of 5 hindrances:
AN 9.64 wrote:64 (2) Hindrances
Bhikkhus, there are these five hindrances. What five? The hindrance of sensual desire, the hindrance of ill will, the hindrance of dullness [458] and drowsiness, the hindrance of restlessness and remorse, and the hindrance of doubt. These are the five hindrances …. These four establishments of mindfulness are to be developed for abandoning these five hindrances.”
In any case to learn we first have to read what the Buddha said and then to correct our views if they contradict to his words, not that we first decide how it should be and then reject the whole suttas, if they don't fit in how we decided it should be.
Last edited by Volo on Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

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Volo wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:07 am 4 satipatthanas can be practiced on different levels. Sometimes abandonment of hindrances is put before 4 satipatthanas, but also sometimes Buddha said, that 4 satipatthanas are to be developed for the abandonment of 5 hindrances:
AN 9.64 wrote:64 (2) Hindrances
Bhikkhus, there are these five hindrances. What five? The hindrance of sensual desire, the hindrance of ill will, the hindrance of dullness [458] and drowsiness, the hindrance of restlessness and remorse, and the hindrance of doubt. These are the five hindrances …. These four establishments of mindfulness are to be developed for abandoning these five hindrances.”
In any case to learn we first have to read what the Buddha said and then to correct our views if they contradict to his words, not that we first decide how it should be and then reject the whole suttas, if they don't fit in how we decided it should be.
There seems to be an agenda in this discussion, with some trying to establish the four tetrads of anapanasati as the superior practice, not for "worldlings", meanwhile dismissing the four frames of satipatthana as a fake, or an inferior "worldling" practice.

Actually I think this supremacist agenda completely misses the point, that these are quite different practices. In simple terms, one focuses on samatha, the other on vipassana, which are developed "in tandem". Or you could say that one focuses on samadhi, the other on sati.
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Re: Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

Post by Spiny Norman »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:00 am
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:49 amI'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning.
Obviously.
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:49 amAt some point one has to abandon the hindrances.
Yes. Prior to Satipatthana, as most of the suttas say. :roll:

Regardless, that this point is in the 4th Satipatthana is illogical. Merely the 1st Satipatthana cannot be done with hindrances. :smile:
You are still missing the basic point. The four frames of satipatthana are NOT describing a progression or sequence. This is obvious since for example the third frame can include the observation of greed, hatred and aversion. Each frame of satipatthana can be treated as a stand-alone practice, with the first and fourth frames containing a set of practices.

This structure is completely different to the four tetrads of anapanasati, which DO describe a progression, stages of a sequence.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

Post by Volo »

Would also be strange if Buddha would never explain what are the four satipatthanas in details, since 16 steps of ānāpānasati is obviously only one way to practice them.
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Re: Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

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Volo wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:04 pm Would also be strange if Buddha would never explain what are the four satipatthanas in details, since 16 steps of ānāpānasati is obviously only one way to practice them.
As I understand it, the four tetrads of anapanasati are only loosely based on the four-frame structure of satipatthana.
In any case they are very different methods of practice. For example, insight is developed in all four frames of satipatthana, but only in the fourth tetrad of anapanasati.
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Re: Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

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Volo wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:04 pm Would also be strange if Buddha would never explain what are the four satipatthanas in details, since 16 steps of ānāpānasati is obviously only one way to practice them.
Its not a way of practice. It is merely a description of fruition. The only way (method) of practise is establishing mindfulness of vossagga. Similar to Dinsdale, you seem to be asserting calming of breathing (step 4) is not required for rapture (step 5) to arise. :geek:
Dinsdale wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:51 pmAs I understand it, the four tetrads of anapanasati are only loosely based on the four-frame structure of satipatthana.
Obviously the above is not any real "understanding". Obviously calming breathing (step 4) is dependent upon experiencing breathing (step 3). Obviously rapture (step 5) is dependent upon calming breathing (step 4). Obviously happiness (step 6) is dependent upon rapture (step 5). Obviously experiencing & calming citta-sankhara (feelings of rapture & happiness) steps 7 & 8 are dependent upon steps 5 & 6. Obviously exclusively experiencing & purifying the citta (heart - steps 9 to 12) is dependent on the calming of the pervasiveness of rapture & happiness (step 8). Obviously hard-core experiencing impermanence (step 13) is dependent upon a clear free mind (step 12). It seems so obvious your idea is wrong. As the Buddha said about calming pleasant feelings leading to a radiant mind fit for the work of 100% vipassana:
When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations.

mn 4
:alien:
Volo wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:04 pmWould also be strange if Buddha would never explain what are the four satipatthanas in details, since 16 steps of ānāpānasati is obviously only one way to practice them.
still not according to basic Dhamma principles. Returning to my reply to Dinsdale, obviously steps 14 and 15 are dependent on step 13, per the 2nd sermon: :roll: :| :geek:
"O monks, the well-instructed noble disciple, seeing thus :geek: , gets wearied of form, gets wearied of feeling, gets wearied of perception, gets wearied of mental formations, gets wearied of consciousness. Being wearied he becomes passion-free. In his freedom from passion, he is emancipated :ugeek: . Being emancipated, there is the knowledge that he is emancipated. He knows: 'birth is exhausted, lived is the holy life, what had to be done is done, there is nothing more of this becoming.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .mend.html
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Re: Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

Post by Spiny Norman »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:39 am
Volo wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:04 pm Would also be strange if Buddha would never explain what are the four satipatthanas in details, since 16 steps of ānāpānasati is obviously only one way to practice them.
Its not a way of practice. It is merely a description of fruition. The only way (method) of practise is establishing mindfulness of vossagga. Similar to Dinsdale, you seem to be asserting calming of breathing (step 4) is not required for rapture (step 5) to arise. :geek:
Dinsdale wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:51 pmAs I understand it, the four tetrads of anapanasati are only loosely based on the four-frame structure of satipatthana.
Obviously the above is not any real "understanding". Obviously calming breathing (step 4) is dependent upon experiencing breathing (step 3). Obviously rapture (step 5) is dependent upon calming breathing (step 4). Obviously happiness (step 6) is dependent upon rapture (step 5). Obviously experiencing & calming citta-sankhara (feelings of rapture & happiness) steps 7 & 8 are dependent upon steps 5 & 6. Obviously exclusively experiencing & purifying the citta (heart - steps 9 to 12) is dependent on the calming of the pervasiveness of rapture & happiness (step 8). Obviously hard-core experiencing impermanence (step 13) is dependent upon a clear free mind (step 12). It seems so obvious your idea is wrong. As the Buddha said about calming pleasant feelings leading to a radiant mind fit for the work of 100% vipassana:
When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations.

mn 4
:alien:
Volo wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:04 pmWould also be strange if Buddha would never explain what are the four satipatthanas in details, since 16 steps of ānāpānasati is obviously only one way to practice them.
still not according to basic Dhamma principles. Returning to my reply to Dinsdale, obviously steps 14 and 15 are dependent on step 13, per the 2nd sermon: :roll: :| :geek:
"O monks, the well-instructed noble disciple, seeing thus :geek: , gets wearied of form, gets wearied of feeling, gets wearied of perception, gets wearied of mental formations, gets wearied of consciousness. Being wearied he becomes passion-free. In his freedom from passion, he is emancipated :ugeek: . Being emancipated, there is the knowledge that he is emancipated. He knows: 'birth is exhausted, lived is the holy life, what had to be done is done, there is nothing more of this becoming.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .mend.html


:shrug:
You just keep repeating your interpretation of the four tetrads of anapanasati, ignoring the fact that the four frames of satipatthana are a completely different practice. The four frames of satipatthana are not a progression or sequence, they are stand-alone practices.
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Re: Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

Post by DooDoot »

Dinsdale wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:41 am You just keep repeating your interpretation of the four tetrads of anapanasati, ignoring the fact that the four frames of satipatthana are a completely different practice.
Same practise - as the Buddha taught, as follows:
Evaṃ bhāvitā kho, bhikkhave, ānāpānassati evaṃ bahulīkatā cattāro satipaṭṭhāne paripūreti.

Mindfulness of breathing, developed and cultivated, fulfils the four foundations of mindfulness.


https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/bodhi
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Dinsdale wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:41 amThe four frames of satipatthana are not a progression or sequence, they are stand-alone practices.
Only according to MN 10 & DN 22 but not according to everything else, it seems. I made many quotes here about how the five hindrances (included in MN 10 & DN 22) fall outside of meditation & satipatthana practise. :smile:
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Re: Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

Post by Spiny Norman »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:46 am
Dinsdale wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:41 am You just keep repeating your interpretation of the four tetrads of anapanasati, ignoring the fact that the four frames of satipatthana are a completely different practice.
Same practise - as the Buddha taught, as follows:
Evaṃ bhāvitā kho, bhikkhave, ānāpānassati evaṃ bahulīkatā cattāro satipaṭṭhāne paripūreti.

Mindfulness of breathing, developed and cultivated, fulfils the four foundations of mindfulness.


https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/bodhi
:alien:
Dinsdale wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:41 amThe four frames of satipatthana are not a progression or sequence, they are stand-alone practices.
Only according to MN 10 & DN 22 but not according to everything else, it seems. I made many quotes here about how the five hindrances (included in MN 10 & DN 22) fall outside of meditation & satipatthana practise. :smile:
If you won't accept that these are different practices, then further discussion is pointless.
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Re: Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

Post by DooDoot »

Dinsdale wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:19 am If you won't accept that these are different practices, then further discussion is pointless.
Buddha said there is one path.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Bhikkhu Analayo and Breath Meditation

Post by Spiny Norman »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:30 am
Dinsdale wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:19 am If you won't accept that these are different practices, then further discussion is pointless.
Buddha said there is one path.
It's actually an 8-fold path, and there are different interpretations of it.
Just to remind you again, this is a discussion forum, and not merely another platform for you to proselytize your "transmissions".
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