I give up

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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budo
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Re: I give up

Post by budo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:16 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:34 pm
Again and again - meditation is not something to start with. It is on the end of the Path.
Part 2, part 1 here - viewtopic.php?f=41&t=33066#p491935

"Then Anathapindika the householder, surrounded by about 500 lay followers, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him, "Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, 'We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.' So you should train yourself, 'Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.' That's how you should train yourself."" -AN 5.176

"Until recently (even up to the late 20th century), there is a common wrong view that spiritual training, especially mental cultivation or meditation, is only the domain of the monastic. The laity merely makes merit by serving and supporting the monastics. However, it is clear from the Pīti Sutta here that spiritual development by way of mental cultivation is just as important for the laity." - Piya Tan - pdf link

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Re: I give up

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:05 pm

budo, MN 107 is the main text for you to read and remember :reading: 8-)
I also wrote extensively on the matter.

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Re: I give up

Post by budo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:11 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:05 pm
budo, MN 107 is the main text for you to read and remember :reading: 8-)
I've already read that and DN2 along time ago. Can you provide more detail as to when one should start meditating at one point? In this life? Another life?

What is the criteria that one discerns "Ok, I may now meditate"?

Please and thank you.

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Re: I give up

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:13 pm

What is the criteria that one discerns "Ok, I may now meditate"?
Short answer: enough clarity of mind, capabilty to easily (without a tension) observe Uposatha precepts 365 days a year .) That is - if we speak about serious, intensive meditation practice. If you want to meditate for 10 mins a day - no problem, everyone can do that (even not buddhists) but this is not a "meditation practice" in my understanding.
Last edited by Zom on Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I give up

Post by budo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:15 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:13 pm
What is the criteria that one discerns "Ok, I may now meditate"?
Short answer: enough clarity of mind, capabilty to easily (without a tension) observe Uposatha precepts 365 days a year .)
Thank you.

And what are the factors of clarity of mind?

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Re: I give up

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:19 pm

And what are the factors of clarity of mind?
Lack of gross defilements, general mental stability.

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Re: I give up

Post by budo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:20 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:19 pm
And what are the factors of clarity of mind?
Lack of gross defilements, general mental stability.
When you say gross defilements are you referring to fetters or something else?

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Re: I give up

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:40 pm

When you say gross defilements are you referring to fetters or something else?
Anger, greed, craving, desires, conceit, envy, etc etc - everything because of which your mood goes up and down all the time and mind is unstable.

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Re: I give up

Post by budo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:44 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:40 pm
When you say gross defilements are you referring to fetters or something else?
Anger, greed, craving, desires, conceit, envy, etc etc - everything because of which your mood goes up and down all the time and mind is unstable.
So then one needs to be enlightened in order to meditate? Pulling the cart before the horse no?

Can a person who has not attained even sotapanna meditate?

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Re: I give up

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:19 pm

So then one needs to be enlightened in order to meditate?
I said gross defilements. Or, to be more precise, gross [level] of defilements. All Buddha's teachings not directly connected with meditation are there to remove all these gross things and prepare mind for higher training, that is, "meditation". Views, speech, recollections, contemplations, livelihood, perception attunements - all these are to be practised before you step on "mediation path".
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Re: I give up

Post by budo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:23 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:19 pm
So then one needs to be enlightened in order to meditate?
I said gross defilements. Or, to be more precise, gross [level] of defilements.
You said lack of gross defilements which then you defined as "Anger, greed, craving, desires, conceit, envy, etc etc"

so you said "lack of Anger, greed, craving, desires, conceit, envy, etc etc"

So back to my question: Sotapanna has gross defilements of craving, desire, and conciet. Can a sotapanna meditate?

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Re: I give up

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:30 pm

You said lack of gross defilements which then you defined as "Anger, greed, craving, desires, conceit, envy, etc etc"

so you said "lack of Anger, greed, craving, desires, conceit, envy, etc etc"
Depends on how to look at that. On some level you can say a person doesn't have anger. But this doesn't mean he is totally free from it. It can appear rarely, it can manifest itself slightly. That's why I said "gross", and not just "defilements".
So back to my question: Sotapanna has gross defilements of craving, desire, and conciet. Can a sotapanna meditate?
He doesn't have gross defilements - I recall at least one sutta where it is confirmed concerning anger. But anyway that doesn't really matter. Still all this depends on the level of defilements, level of mental clarity. Some stream-winners can attain arahantship in this very life, progressing very fast. Some may practise for 7 lives. This is a huge period of time. Reason for that - level of defilements, level of mental clarity.

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Re: I give up

Post by budo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:35 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:30 pm
You said lack of gross defilements which then you defined as "Anger, greed, craving, desires, conceit, envy, etc etc"

so you said "lack of Anger, greed, craving, desires, conceit, envy, etc etc"
Depends on how to look at that. On some level you can say a person doesn't have anger. But this doesn't mean he is totally free from it. It can appear rarely, it can manifest itself slightly. That's why I said "gross", and not just "defilements".
So back to my question: Sotapanna has gross defilements of craving, desire, and conciet. Can a sotapanna meditate?
He doesn't have gross defilements - I recall at least one sutta where it is confirmed concerning anger. But anyway that doesn't really matter. Still all this depends on the level of defilements, level of mental clarity. Some stream-winners can attain arahantship in this very life, progressing very fast. Some may practise for 7 lives. This is a huge period of time. Reason for that - level of defilements, level of mental clarity.
Uhh, what? Stream enterers have desire and ill-will and the remaining 5 other fetters. Furthermore in Anapanasati sutta, the Buddha teaches Anapanasati to people who are even lower than Stream-enterers. Why would he teach Anapanasati to people who cannot use it?

If they wouldn't be able to learn it he wouldn't teach it as he has kicked people out of the assembly before for lacking purity requirement before a teaching.

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Re: I give up

Post by budo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:28 pm

I have to go now, you can take your time to answer. I will say this, that the only requirement for meditating is... meditating.

In Anapanasati sutta, the Buddha surveys everyone from arahants all the way to non-nobles, and the last things he says before he stops scanning the assembly is this:

"In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity... [the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing."

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Re: I give up

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:31 pm

Uhh, what? Stream enterers have desire and ill-will and the remaining 5 other fetters.
See what I've said above.
Buddha teaches Anapanasati to people who are even lower than Stream-enterers... .... to non-nobles
Sutta does not say this. But even if it did - ancient ascetics with 8th jhana weren't stream-winners, but still, they were 5 mintues from arahantship (they had much more developed mind than stream-winners'). One short phrase was enough for them to attain full enlightenment immediately on the place (Bahiya case is the best known, but not unique).

What is more important - Anapanasati sutta was given to monks, not lay people. Probably, capable monks, with developed minds. Same goes for Satipatthana sutta (at least Commy states that it is so - it was given to special, advanced audience).

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