Thoughts and Suffering

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
SarathW
Posts: 9996
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by SarathW » Mon May 21, 2018 4:37 am

Only temporarily.
We can't live without Vitakka and Vicara.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Dinsdale
Posts: 5930
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by Dinsdale » Mon May 21, 2018 8:26 am

robertk wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:33 am
The other sense doors have only neutral feeling.
Really? Why then do I get irritated with the yappy dog barking next door?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

auto
Posts: 397
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by auto » Mon May 21, 2018 12:26 pm

one_awakening wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 12:06 pm
In my own practice, I have found that thoughts seem to contribute the most to suffering than any of the other five sense objects. Would this be a fair statement?
If you say thoughts contribute, then it means that thoughts are defiled already. Like when swastika is equated with nazies.

Same way empty stomach feeling is equated with that you have to eat something so that the craving in it is not noticed and moreso the source is in head never seen. Sensual craving is in the torso what needs to be overcome beforehand, and 'beforehand' is not a slip but also the channel what goes through hand and heart needs realized by not killing and not greed.

if you think that postive thinking will result in positive happenings, like think positively you can get the things you want to get, like thinking positive will make you perform better, while the greed is not seen because of the postive feeling what is equated with the feelings when you get a satisfaction from idk buying something new.


Since now gods are embedded into language and forgotten, then word 'fantazisying' it once actually were a god.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4287
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 21, 2018 12:38 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:26 am
robertk wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:33 am
The other sense doors have only neutral feeling.
Really? Why then do I get irritated with the yappy dog barking next door?
Maybe because the sound triggers your thoughts about dogs, neighbours, and our assumed right to hear only what we want to hear. Sounds can actually hurt, but they need to be very loud and on the point where it tips over into the sense door of physical feeling. Sound is an interesting one, because there is (unlike sight) little that we can do to blank it out of consciousness. But my guess is that if the "yappy dog" sound were part of background noise in a jungle or some other completely natural environment, we would soon stop paying attention; like we do with frogs, birds, crickets, and water sounds.

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2890
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by robertk » Mon May 21, 2018 2:47 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:26 am
robertk wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:33 am
The other sense doors have only neutral feeling.
Really? Why then do I get irritated with the yappy dog barking next door?
the irritation is through the minddoor which arises after the sensedoor...

Basically we worldlings are too deluded to really understand that " sticks and stones may break my bones, but barking can never hurt me"

edit: more or less what samvara wrote..

Dinsdale
Posts: 5930
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by Dinsdale » Tue May 22, 2018 8:16 am

robertk wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:47 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:26 am
robertk wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:33 am
The other sense doors have only neutral feeling.
Really? Why then do I get irritated with the yappy dog barking next door?
...the irritation is through the mind-door which arises after the sensedoor...
Basically we worldlings are too deluded to really understand that " sticks and stones may break my bones, but barking can never hurt me"
I was thinking of DO, where craving ( and by implication, aversion ) arise in dependence upon feeling, and feeling arises in dependence upon contact via one of the sense-bases ( including mind ). So here there is aversion arising in dependence upon a mildly unpleasant feeling arising "at" the mind-base?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4287
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by Sam Vara » Tue May 22, 2018 8:27 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 8:16 am
I was thinking of DO, where craving ( and by implication, aversion ) arise in dependence upon feeling, and feeling arises in dependence upon contact via one of the sense-bases ( including mind ). So here there is aversion arising in dependence upon a mildly unpleasant feeling arising "at" the mind-base?
That sounds right to me. If you heard the same sound coming from a rescue dog while you were buried in an avalanche or somesuch, the experience would be different. The feeling arising at the mind-base would be pleasant, and probably give rise to the strongest possible craving.

Dinsdale
Posts: 5930
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by Dinsdale » Tue May 22, 2018 8:32 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 8:27 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 8:16 am
I was thinking of DO, where craving ( and by implication, aversion ) arise in dependence upon feeling, and feeling arises in dependence upon contact via one of the sense-bases ( including mind ). So here there is aversion arising in dependence upon a mildly unpleasant feeling arising "at" the mind-base?
That sounds right to me. If you heard the same sound coming from a rescue dog while you were buried in an avalanche or somesuch, the experience would be different. The feeling arising at the mind-base would be pleasant, and probably give rise to the strongest possible craving.
That makes sense, but now I'm wondering about the distinction between physical and mental vedana. For example, isn't the first arrow in the Arrow Sutta unpleasant ( physical ) vedana?

"And which are the two feelings? Physical & mental. These are the two feelings.

"And which are the three feelings? A feeling of pleasure, a feeling of pain, a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. These are the three feelings.

"And which are the six feelings? A feeling born of eye-contact, a feeling born of ear-contact... nose-contact... tongue-contact... body-contact... intellect-contact. These are the six feelings."


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4287
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by Sam Vara » Tue May 22, 2018 8:48 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 8:32 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 8:27 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 8:16 am
I was thinking of DO, where craving ( and by implication, aversion ) arise in dependence upon feeling, and feeling arises in dependence upon contact via one of the sense-bases ( including mind ). So here there is aversion arising in dependence upon a mildly unpleasant feeling arising "at" the mind-base?
That sounds right to me. If you heard the same sound coming from a rescue dog while you were buried in an avalanche or somesuch, the experience would be different. The feeling arising at the mind-base would be pleasant, and probably give rise to the strongest possible craving.
That makes sense, but now I'm wondering about the distinction between physical and mental vedana. For example, isn't the first arrow in the Arrow Sutta unpleasant ( physical ) vedana?
It is, but note robertk's point above about thoughts contributing most to suffering,
apart from moments of intense pain at the body door. The other sense doors have only neutral feeling.
Yappy dogs are in this vital respect different from arrows, double-handled saws, etc. The latter would appear to be far more intractable than the former.

pegembara
Posts: 1287
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by pegembara » Wed May 23, 2018 4:38 am

In my own practice, I have found that thoughts seem to contribute the most to suffering than any of the other five sense objects. Would this be a fair statement?


Akase padam natthi, samano natthi bahire,
Papancabhirata paja, nippapanca tathagata.

There are no footprints in the sky;
You won’t find the sage out there.
The world delights in conceptual proliferation (papanca).
Buddhas delight in the ending of that (nippapanca).
Tangled in Thought

When concepts and thoughts are entertained without wisdom, the world becomes fragmented and filled with complexity. The Buddha called this tendency papanca, or “conceptual proliferation.” A simple thought like “me” gives rise to a “you.” A “this” necessitates a “that.” As conditions change, the notion of time is created. The actual flow of sense experience is ever-changing and ungraspable, but the nature of language imparts apparent solidity and “thingness” to the world. When thought and concept are thus conjoined with ignorance, it leads to grasping, proliferation, increasing complexity, and the suffering of endless “birth and death.”

The ending of papanca—nippapanca—reveals the true, undivided nature of the reality we inhabit. When the proliferating tendency of the mind ceases, even for a moment, the everpeaceful radiant heart is recognized. Papanca means “to spread out,” and the word conveys the dynamic web of thoughts and concepts that create our sense of reality. Rather than illuminating reality, papanca actually eclipses the direct seeing of what is really true. Papanca endlessly separates, and nippapanca means the cessation of that. It is a profound practice, to see through thinking and its activity of concretizing the self and the world.

https://tricycle.org/magazine/tangled-thought/
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2890
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by robertk » Fri May 25, 2018 2:00 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:26 am
robertk wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:33 am
The other sense doors have only neutral feeling.
Really? Why then do I get irritated with the yappy dog barking next door?
another aspect: although the feeling that arises at the ear door when sound is contacted ( vedana associated with sota vinnana) is always neutral, it ( the hearing consciousness) is still classified as vipaka (result) due to either kusala or akusala kamma. the hearing of a barking dog would be due to akusala kamma from the past - and this is inherently undesirable..

one more: sound is a thorn to concentration - it interrupts the flow of thoughts for example.

Dinsdale
Posts: 5930
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by Dinsdale » Fri May 25, 2018 9:53 am

robertk wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 2:00 am
one more: sound is a thorn to concentration - it interrupts the flow of thoughts for example.
I think it depends how intrusive the sound is, though I don't have a problem at all with natural sounds like waves breaking, or wind in the trees. With the yappy dog next door, my irritation is mostly with the neighbours for not doing anything about it. The dog is quite neurotic, they tried some "doggy counselling" but they didn't see it through. :popcorn:

I can usually notice my reactions to various stimuli, but it sometime takes a while to work out what the root causes are.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests