masturbation what's wrong?

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Dan74
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by Dan74 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:28 am

ihrjordan wrote:Cool! But no one is promoting masturbation. We are just not condemning it. That's all.

I have no beef with the view that indulgence in any sensual pleasures is incompatible with nibbana.[/q
"What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real." -Dan
"Wanking should be fine, minus a rampant porn habit. Just don't get addicted to other men's wives, whatever else you do :tongue:"-Reductor
Not sure what you are trying to say by quoting these snippets, lhr...

But for what it's worth, I feel that metta-bhavana is the best practice at this point. It's an incredibly powerful thing to feel good will towards oneself and each other. The relevance here is that whether one overindulges or fears sexuality, a sense of good will towards oneself helps relinquish both the addiction and the fear. When I already feel OK with myself, I neither need so much, nor do I feel aversion to me and my body.
_/|\_

knighter
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by knighter » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:50 am

Sorry i asked
cheers
knighter

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tiltbillings
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:57 am

knighter wrote:Sorry i asked
cheers
knighter
All very exciting, but the question is, of course, what is your opinion on the matter now?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

knighter
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by knighter » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:04 pm

I've come from being a party person who drank and had much sex and wanked maybe twice a day, everyday.
To someone who might have 2 beers a week and a wank maybe ones a month, i think vipassana has helped me to become a lot
more subtle and i feel, when i think to much about passion and start to lose the balance of my mind and relieve myself
i become balanced again i smile and start over again and the distance seems to be further between wanks every time.
I just wanted peoples opinion on the matter i found no opinions just a mass of buddhist covered ego's.
Im not a monk, I'm a happy healthy family man.
i think i'll just carry on trying my hardest to gain awareness into everything i do and when i fail ill
pick myself up and start again.
cheers
knighter (39)

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tiltbillings
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:38 pm

knighter wrote:I've come from being a party person who drank and had much sex and wanked maybe twice a day, everyday.
To someone who might have 2 beers a week and a wank maybe ones a month, i think vipassana has helped me to become a lot
more subtle and i feel, when i think to much about passion and start to lose the balance of my mind and relieve myself
i become balanced again i smile and start over again and the distance seems to be further between wanks every time.
I just wanted peoples opinion on the matter i found no opinions just a mass of buddhist covered ego's.
Im not a monk, I'm a happy healthy family man.
i think i'll just carry on trying my hardest to gain awareness into everything i do and when i fail ill
pick myself up and start again.
cheers
knighter (39)
Sounds exceptionally good to me. Thanks. Tilt (65).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by daverupa » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:53 pm

knighter wrote:i think i'll just carry on trying my hardest to gain awareness into everything i do and when i fail ill
pick myself up and start again.
Delightful!

(34, soon enough)
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Ben
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by Ben » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:23 pm

ihrjordan wrote:"This kind of offence can only lead to evil results in this world as well as in the next." ----------DIRECT QUOTE or is somebody going to argue that it was a later addition? :quote:
If it is a direct quote then please provide the source, as per our TOS.
Thanks
Ben
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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SDC
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by SDC » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:56 pm

I know I'm not a mod, but just wanted to throw it out there since it has happened more than once in this thread that when quoting others posts you should review it closely for the proper quote codes before submitting otherwise a post could be very confusing.

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Mkoll
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by Mkoll » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:03 pm

SDC wrote:I know I'm not a mod, but just wanted to throw it out there since it has happened more than once in this thread that when quoting others posts you should review it closely for the proper quote codes before submitting otherwise a post could be very confusing.
I agree. The "Preview" button at the bottom of the posting text box is really helpful. Press that before hitting the "Submit" button which is right next to it.

Plz. :bow:
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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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ihrjordan
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:06 pm

http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=117 "Once there was a thera by the name of Seyyasaka, who was in the habit of masturbating. When the Buddha heard about this, he rebuked the thera for doing something that would lead one farther away from the attainment of Magga and Phala. At the same time, the Buddha laid down the discipline prohibiting such indulgence in sexual pleasures, i.e., Samghadisesa Apatti, offences which require penance and suspension from the Order. Then, the Buddha added, "This kind of offence can only lead to evil results in this world as well as in the next." Again I still don't know why most of you are defending your stance to last breath, I feel like if I was arguing on a side that said you shouldn't drink alcohol and I didn't want to promote the use of alcohol as per his question you would agree with me but why is it it so different with masturbation?
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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ihrjordan
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:13 pm

Reductor wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:Cool! But no one is promoting masturbation. We are just not condemning it. That's all.

I have no beef with the view that indulgence in any sensual pleasures is incompatible with nibbana.[/q
"What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real." -Dan
"Wanking should be fine, minus a rampant porn habit. Just don't get addicted to other men's wives, whatever else you do :tongue:"-Reductor
My post was a joke about being addicted to booze verses addicted to adultery, the doing of either being a violation of the five precepts -- in contrast to wanking, which is not a violation of any five precepts. (this joke goes back to OP where op is inquires if a fault that doesn't violate the core precepts of virtue is worse than a fault which does violate the core precepts of virtue.)

You are on about arousing and sustaining even a bit of lust through the engagement in masturbation. Yet lay people, like me and most everyone here, were expected to entertain defilement by the buddha, which is why fewer rules were laid down and training was less exhaustive.

Yet you suppose we ought to train as vigilantly as monks or nuns, which is more or less impossible while maintaining family, work, and social duties, all of which can arouse heaps of defilement. Get real.

As to being attacked, as you claim you are: you took the posts with which you disagreed as signs that this forum was off track regarding dhamma, and that our standards are too lax, and that with dhamma it was all or nothing.

That seemed awfully defensive, and is rather offensive (and akusala).

More like you've idealized the dhamma and have an idealized vision of the practitioner you wish to be, and are faulting the rest of us for having simpler and more modest aspirations.

But oh well.
But what is wrong with what I did? Because I personally feel like practice shouldn't be just some sort of hobby you can do on the side I'm the bad guy? I've been told countless times that meditation and the buddhas path is a lifestyle to be cultivated and sooner or later perfected. Because my goals are high and I don't think it's right to give someone false ideas about the benefits and healthiness of masturbation I'm in the wrong?
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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tiltbillings
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:04 pm

ihrjordan,

I have repeatedly asked you to clarify and support some of the contentions you have made rather vehemently, but you have refused to do so. For you convenience I have copied them for you below. It certainly would help your position if you would be kind enough answer questions put you, especially if you want people to answer question you put to them.

  • you made a rather extensive claim about self-pleasuring.

    ihrjordan:
    • It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not.

    I'd like to know where this list comes from. Certainly it does not come from the suttas, since the Buddha did not proscribe self-pleasuring for the lay-person. You seem to accept "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults (which I assume include homosexuality as well), but for some reason self-pleasuring is abnormal, in you opinion. Based upon what?
  • ihrjordan wrote:...and what do you mean says who? how could masturbation from a buddhist perspective have any benefit at all?
    Does "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults have any benefit at all? The Buddha certainly did not say: no "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults.
Aloka's question to you waits to be answered: "What makes you certain of all this, ihrj ? How many of other people's relationships, sexual habits and mental states do you have first hand knowledge of at the age of 19 ?

Awaiting your answers.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Reductor
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by Reductor » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:17 pm

ihrjordan wrote:
Reductor wrote:
My post was a joke about being addicted to booze verses addicted to adultery, the doing of either being a violation of the five precepts -- in contrast to wanking....
But what is wrong with what I did? Because I personally feel like practice shouldn't be just some sort of hobby you can do on the side I'm the bad guy? I've been told countless times that meditation and the buddhas path is a lifestyle to be cultivated and sooner or later perfected. Because my goals are high and I don't think it's right to give someone false ideas about the benefits and healthiness of masturbation I'm in the wrong?
Jordan,

I'm 31 this month. I've been applying Buddhist teaching to my life for 16 years. There hasn't been a single philosophy or group of practices so important to my life as dhamma, and it is not a hobby. Sometimes I've practiced like a lay monk, other times just enough to keep me on the rails. But I've learned that, as a lay person, I have to apply the teachings in a way that alleviates distress, not compounds it.

I've practice restraint with masturbation, and have practiced meditations to control lust, like the graveyard contemplation and the 32 parts. In fact, the 32 part contemplation was my favorite for quite a while.

Anyway, I know you're meaning well, but you're also showing a lack of experience and consideration for your fellow dhamma practitioners by painting them as hobbiests and as lax simply because they approach this topic differently from you.

Peace.

EDIT: one last point: at points in your posts you seem to suggest masturbation is inherently linked to porn, but it isn't. Porn might always lead to masturbation, but masturbation needn't have any relation to porn. And of the two, porn really is a horrible thing for me, and never appeases any of my lust but only makes me more unhappy. Masturbation doesn't leave me in such sad straights as porn does. And... there we go, I won't go into detail as I don't want to gross people out ;)

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SDC
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by SDC » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:00 pm

:goodpost:

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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:04 pm

Reductor wrote:......

Anyway, I know you're meaning well, but you're also showing a lack of experience and consideration for your fellow dhamma practitioners by painting them as hobbiests and as lax simply because they approach this topic differently from you.

Peace.

EDIT: one last point: at points in your posts you seem to suggest masturbation is inherently linked to porn, but it isn't. Porn might always lead to masturbation, but masturbation needn't have any relation to porn. And of the two, porn really is a horrible thing for me, and never appeases any of my lust but only makes me more unhappy. Masturbation doesn't leave me in such sad straights as porn does. And... there we go, I won't go into detail as I don't want to gross people out ;)
:goodpost:

Very good points, worth noting.
Thanks for mentioning these factors.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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