Delightful!knighter wrote:i think i'll just carry on trying my hardest to gain awareness into everything i do and when i fail ill
pick myself up and start again.
(34, soon enough)
Delightful!knighter wrote:i think i'll just carry on trying my hardest to gain awareness into everything i do and when i fail ill
pick myself up and start again.
If it is a direct quote then please provide the source, as per our TOS.ihrjordan wrote:"This kind of offence can only lead to evil results in this world as well as in the next." ----------DIRECT QUOTE or is somebody going to argue that it was a later addition?
I agree. The "Preview" button at the bottom of the posting text box is really helpful. Press that before hitting the "Submit" button which is right next to it.SDC wrote:I know I'm not a mod, but just wanted to throw it out there since it has happened more than once in this thread that when quoting others posts you should review it closely for the proper quote codes before submitting otherwise a post could be very confusing.
But what is wrong with what I did? Because I personally feel like practice shouldn't be just some sort of hobby you can do on the side I'm the bad guy? I've been told countless times that meditation and the buddhas path is a lifestyle to be cultivated and sooner or later perfected. Because my goals are high and I don't think it's right to give someone false ideas about the benefits and healthiness of masturbation I'm in the wrong?Reductor wrote:My post was a joke about being addicted to booze verses addicted to adultery, the doing of either being a violation of the five precepts -- in contrast to wanking, which is not a violation of any five precepts. (this joke goes back to OP where op is inquires if a fault that doesn't violate the core precepts of virtue is worse than a fault which does violate the core precepts of virtue.)ihrjordan wrote:Cool! But no one is promoting masturbation. We are just not condemning it. That's all.
I have no beef with the view that indulgence in any sensual pleasures is incompatible with nibbana.[/q
"What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real." -Dan
"Wanking should be fine, minus a rampant porn habit. Just don't get addicted to other men's wives, whatever else you do "-Reductor
You are on about arousing and sustaining even a bit of lust through the engagement in masturbation. Yet lay people, like me and most everyone here, were expected to entertain defilement by the buddha, which is why fewer rules were laid down and training was less exhaustive.
Yet you suppose we ought to train as vigilantly as monks or nuns, which is more or less impossible while maintaining family, work, and social duties, all of which can arouse heaps of defilement. Get real.
As to being attacked, as you claim you are: you took the posts with which you disagreed as signs that this forum was off track regarding dhamma, and that our standards are too lax, and that with dhamma it was all or nothing.
That seemed awfully defensive, and is rather offensive (and akusala).
More like you've idealized the dhamma and have an idealized vision of the practitioner you wish to be, and are faulting the rest of us for having simpler and more modest aspirations.
But oh well.
Does "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults have any benefit at all? The Buddha certainly did not say: no "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults.ihrjordan wrote:...and what do you mean says who? how could masturbation from a buddhist perspective have any benefit at all?
Jordan,ihrjordan wrote:But what is wrong with what I did? Because I personally feel like practice shouldn't be just some sort of hobby you can do on the side I'm the bad guy? I've been told countless times that meditation and the buddhas path is a lifestyle to be cultivated and sooner or later perfected. Because my goals are high and I don't think it's right to give someone false ideas about the benefits and healthiness of masturbation I'm in the wrong?Reductor wrote:
My post was a joke about being addicted to booze verses addicted to adultery, the doing of either being a violation of the five precepts -- in contrast to wanking....
Reductor wrote:......
Anyway, I know you're meaning well, but you're also showing a lack of experience and consideration for your fellow dhamma practitioners by painting them as hobbiests and as lax simply because they approach this topic differently from you.
Peace.
EDIT: one last point: at points in your posts you seem to suggest masturbation is inherently linked to porn, but it isn't. Porn might always lead to masturbation, but masturbation needn't have any relation to porn. And of the two, porn really is a horrible thing for me, and never appeases any of my lust but only makes me more unhappy. Masturbation doesn't leave me in such sad straights as porn does. And... there we go, I won't go into detail as I don't want to gross people out
Note that this statement is addressed to a Bhikkhu, who has taken on a life of renunciation. So it is an offence against the monastic rules.ihrjordan wrote:http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=117 "Once there was a thera by the name of Seyyasaka, who was in the habit of masturbating. When the Buddha heard about this, he rebuked the thera for doing something that would lead one farther away from the attainment of Magga and Phala. At the same time, the Buddha laid down the discipline prohibiting such indulgence in sexual pleasures, i.e., Samghadisesa Apatti, offences which require penance and suspension from the Order. Then, the Buddha added, "This kind of offence can only lead to evil results in this world as well as in the next." Again I still don't know why most of you are defending your stance to last breath, I feel like if I was arguing on a side that said you shouldn't drink alcohol and I didn't want to promote the use of alcohol as per his question you would agree with me but why is it it so different with masturbation?
One reason is because there is demonstrably a world of difference between indulging in Alcohol and masturbation.ihrjordan wrote:.... I feel like if I was arguing on a side that said you shouldn't drink alcohol and I didn't want to promote the use of alcohol as per his question you would agree with me but why is it it so different with masturbation?
Reductor wrote:Anyway, I know you're meaning well, but you're also showing a lack of experience and consideration for your fellow dhamma practitioners by painting them as hobbiests and as lax simply because they approach this topic differently from you.
Yes. The Buddha had much higher standards for his bhikkhus than his lay followers. Part of the reason I don't feel ready for a monastic life is because I feel I would be unworthy of the robe at this present juncture. It is one thing to not follow the Buddha's teachings as perfectly and ideally as possible as a householder. It is quite another to do that as a monk.; and much worse, I think.mikenz66 wrote:Note that this statement is addressed to a Bhikkhu, who has taken on a life of renunciation. So it is an offence against the monastic rules.ihrjordan wrote:http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=117 "Once there was a thera by the name of Seyyasaka, who was in the habit of masturbating. When the Buddha heard about this, he rebuked the thera for doing something that would lead one farther away from the attainment of Magga and Phala. At the same time, the Buddha laid down the discipline prohibiting such indulgence in sexual pleasures, i.e., Samghadisesa Apatti, offences which require penance and suspension from the Order. Then, the Buddha added, "This kind of offence can only lead to evil results in this world as well as in the next." Again I still don't know why most of you are defending your stance to last breath, I feel like if I was arguing on a side that said you shouldn't drink alcohol and I didn't want to promote the use of alcohol as per his question you would agree with me but why is it it so different with masturbation?
Mike
Dhammapada wrote:307. There are many evil characters and uncontrolled men wearing the saffron robe. These wicked men will be born in states of woe because of their evil deeds.
308. It would be better to swallow a red-hot iron ball, blazing like fire, than as an immoral and uncontrolled monk to eat the alms of the people.
...
311. Just as kusa grass wrongly handled cuts the hand, even so, a recluse's life wrongly lived drags one to states of woe.
...
313. If anything is to be done, let one do it with sustained vigor. A lax monastic life stirs up the dust of passions all the more.
Good idea to step away for a while.ihrjordan wrote:You know what? nevermind everyone. I didn't intend for this carry on like this, It's interfering with my practice at the moment and I wouldn't want it to interfere with yours. Whether I'm in the wrong or not it's not worth pushing my viewpoint anymore while causing unneeded stress and besides I didn't join Dhamma wheel to make enemies.