masturbation what's wrong?

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:25 am

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, you have a guy that has chroniic prostatosis; is not married, and the doctoirs says to him, you need to "drain" your prostate several times a week to keep down he congestation and thusly the pain. So, he is not masturbating because of lust or because he is bored or even to pleasure himself because he wants to. Given this motivation, would it possible to for one to wack-off mindfully, just as it is possible to eat mindfully?
Guess it depends on whether he uses "visual aids."
One does not need visual aids to get a stiffy.
But seriously, how does that example relate to the notion that hinderances don't always hinder?
It might not, but how about answering the question, maybe?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Jechbi
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Jechbi » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:It might not, but how about answering the question, maybe?
Sorry. I think under the hypothetical circumstance you constructed, as a medical procedure, yes, it might be possible. But I also think it's not a relevant example.

So, with regard to masturbation as it ordinarily is "practiced," would you answer the same? Because that was actually my question. Your hypothetical appears to be a way of avoiding that question.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:33 am

Chris wrote:
Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Is it out of the realm of possibilities, probably not, but also probably very difficult.
Would you answer the same with regard to masturbation?
Gotcha! :tongue:
Not even close.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:51 am

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:It might not, but how about answering the question, maybe?
Sorry. I think under the hypothetical circumstance you constructed, as a medical procedure, yes, it might be possible. But I also think it's not a relevant example.
It is not that hypothetical. It is a common thing urologists tell their male patients who have prostate problems.
So, with regard to masturbation as it ordinarily is "practiced," would you answer the same? Because that was actually my question. Your hypothetical appears to be a way of avoiding that question.
First of all a hindrance need not hinder anything simply by being truly mindful of it, but that has been discussed in detail above. One does not need to act upon an urge to wack-off, nor does one need to fight it, by resisting it with gritted teeth. Being carefully mindful of the urge, with "choiceless awareness," what was a hindrance becomes something else. Again, I am not talking about acting other than paying attention. Read the words as they are written.

But in terms of acting, can you mindfully - truly pay attention to the act of eating something that you find highly pleasurable? You are at three month retreat, it is meal time, and they serve a simple meal, but it is something you know to be a comfort food and that you find higly pleasurable with lots of good associations. What do you do? Skip the meal because the pleasure of eating the meal is a sensual pleasure, and sensual pleasure is a hindrance to your practice?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by cooran » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:55 am

Jechbi said: Your hypothetical appears to be a way of avoiding that question
.
Yes, maybe not chroniic prostatosis

but maybe a sure case of Amarāvikkhepikas? :tongue:
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:02 am

Chris wrote:
Jechbi said: Your hypothetical appears to be a way of avoiding that question
.
Yes, maybe not chroniic prostatosis

but maybe a sure case of Amarāvikkhepikas? :tongue:
Are you calling me an eel-wiggler? If you are, the smilie thingie does not excuse it, you know. But you would not do that, given that that would be an ad hominem and show that you have no real argument to counter anything being said.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Jechbi » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:03 am

tiltbillings wrote:What do you do? Skip the meal meal because the pleasure of eating the meal is a sensual pleasure, and sensual pleasure is a hindrance to your practice?
No, I wouldn't skip the meal, because I don't want to starve. But I also wouldn't try to savor the food and lose myself in how good it tastes and how enjoyable it is, or in other words, seek self-gratification in it.

Forget about gotcha. In this thread, I think most people are discussing masturbation in its context as a form of "self-gratification." I thought that was the sense in which you also were using the term, in other words, to pleasure oneself and bring about sexual gratification. Have you been understanding the term differently throughout this thread? If so, then we might be talking past each other.

If not, let me rephrase my question to you:
tiltbillings wrote:
Jechbi wrote:Let's say a man is having sex with his wife, fully mindful, fully attentive, straight through to orgasm, including during orgasm. Sampajano?
Is it out of the realm of possibilities, probably not, but also probably very difficult.
Would you answer the same with regard to masturbation in its sense as described above?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Ben » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:07 am

Hi Tilt
Sorry to take this off-topic...
tiltbillings wrote: You are at three month retreat, it is meal time, and they serve a simple meal, but it is something you know to be a comfort food and that you find higly pleasurable with lots of good associations. What do you do? Skip the meal meal because the pleasure of eating the meal is a sensual pleasure, and sensual pleasure is a hindrance to your practice?
What sort of retrreat is this?
With the retreats I attend, after a couple of days all food becomes repulsive.
But then, its just me. I know many of my co-retreatants spend metta day (when people can talk to each other again following noble silence) raving about the food. But for me, its different.
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:20 am

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What do you do? Skip the meal meal because the pleasure of eating the meal is a sensual pleasure, and sensual pleasure is a hindrance to your practice?
No, I wouldn't skip the meal, because I don't want to starve. But I also wouldn't try to savor the food and lose myself in how good it tastes and how enjoyable it is, or in other words, seek self-gratification in it.
Geez, what a bunch of grim Presbyterians here. So, you would grimly eat the food, trying your best not to enjoy it. Another option there might be?
Forget about gotcha. In this thread, I think most people are discussing masturbation in its context as a form of "self-gratification."
Don't we self gratify all the time? Drinking a favorite tea while reading our favorite author? Listening to a beautiful piece of music? Company of good friends? The high that come from exercise? Wearing one's favorite shirt? Playing with one's grandkids? Petting one's dog?
I thought that was the sense in which you also were using the term, in other words, to pleasure oneself and bring about sexual gratification. Have you been understanding the term differently throughout this thread? If so, then we might be talking past each other.
I am simply exploring possibilities, but what is interesting is the particular opprobrium laid upon masturbation as if it were in a particularly bad class -- worse than others - of things we might choose to do to do that is pleasurable. Sounds like Victorian Christian guilt to me.

If not, let me rephrase my question to you:
Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Jechbi wrote:Let's say a man is having sex with his wife, fully mindful, fully attentive, straight through to orgasm, including during orgasm. Sampajano?
Is it out of the realm of possibilities, probably not, but also probably very difficult.
Would you answer the same with regard to masturbation in its sense as described above?
If the one is not out of the realm of possibilities, then neither is the other.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:22 am

Ben wrote:Hi Tilt
Sorry to take this off-topic...
tiltbillings wrote: You are at three month retreat, it is meal time, and they serve a simple meal, but it is something you know to be a comfort food and that you find higly pleasurable with lots of good associations. What do you do? Skip the meal meal because the pleasure of eating the meal is a sensual pleasure, and sensual pleasure is a hindrance to your practice?
What sort of retrreat is this?
With the retreats I attend, after a couple of days all food becomes repulsive.
But then, its just me. I know many of my co-retreatants spend metta day (when people can talk to each other again following noble silence) raving about the food. But for me, its different.
metta

Ben
Well, then the food example is obviously not for you, but clearly others are maybe getting caught up in one of the most basic of sensual pleasure, eating.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Ben » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:24 am

tiltbillings wrote:Geez, what a bunch of grim Presbyterians here.
Where? WHERE???
Can we burn a witch too?
Oh dag-nab-it! The Crucible's on tomorrow night!
-- only joking!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Jechbi » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:42 am

tiltbillings wrote:Geez, what a bunch of grim Presbyterians here. So, you would grimly eat the food, trying your best not to enjoy it. Another option there might be?
No, I didn't say that. Try not to enjoy it? That's like the "gritting your teeth" thing.
tiltbillings wrote:Don't we self gratify all the time? Drinking a favorite tea while reading our favorite author? Listening to a beautiful piece of music? Company of good friends? The high that come from exercise? Wearing one's favorite shirt? Playing with one's grandkids? Petting one's dog?
What if we do? Does that mean masturbation is just another innocuous way to pass the time?
tiltbillings wrote:I am simply exploring possibilities, but what is interesting is the particular opprobrium laid upon masturbation as if it were in a particularly bad class -- worse than others - of things we might choose to do to do that is pleasurable. Sounds like Victorian Christian guilt to me.
Guilt is a self-indulgence not unlike masturbation.
tiltbillings wrote:If the one is not out of the realm of possibilities, then neither is the other.
That's the thing I'm not so sure about. Because it seems as if a person who engages in masturbation sets out solely in pursuit of sense pleasure without any other motivating factor. If you play with your grandkids, there's some opportunity there for metta, or karuna. If you're reading a book and drinking some tea, there's the opportunity to educate oneself. If you exercise, there's the opportunity to stay healthy and create a better physical foundation for one's own practice and to help others. If you're having sex with your wife, then you're creating a better marriage relationship. And so on.

But if you're masturbating for self-gratification, I just don't see where there's anything skillful there at all. It just seems like a pursuit in entirely the opposite direction as Dhamma. I don't see how it compares with those other activities you mention. In that respect, I highly doubt that it's possible to masturbate and yet maintain sampajanna. I think either you'd stop masturbating, or you would no longer have sampajanna. I don't think the same necessarily must be said about having sex with one's wife.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:03 am

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Don't we self gratify all the time? Drinking a favorite tea while reading our favorite author? Listening to a beautiful piece of music? Company of good friends? The high that come from exercise? Wearing one's favorite shirt? Playing with one's grandkids? Petting one's dog?
What if we do? Does that mean masturbation is just another innocuous way to pass the time?
I do not think it is as deadly as some make it out to be.
tiltbillings wrote:I am simply exploring possibilities, but what is interesting is the particular opprobrium laid upon masturbation as if it were in a particularly bad class -- worse than others - of things we might choose to do to do that is pleasurable. Sounds like Victorian Christian guilt to me.
Guilt is a self-indulgence not unlike masturbation.
Sure, but there seems to be a lot of guilt and embarrassment around the subject.
tiltbillings wrote:If the one is not out of the realm of possibilities, then neither is the other.
That's the thing I'm not so sure about. Because it seems as if a person who engages in masturbation sets out solely in pursuit of sense pleasure without any other motivating factor.
And you make my point. Interestingly, you left out listening to music in your response to the list of things, but is sense pleasure is all that bad that we cannot abide in it once in a while? No bowl of popcorn, no video games, no looking at sunsets, no movies, no anything that has no redeeming value.
But if you're masturbating for self-gratification, I just don't see where there's anything skillful there at all.
Like listening to music or eating chocolate, or drinking a chai. What is skillful in that? Maybe you’re a bit depressed; self-pleasuring might make you feel a bit better. Is that bad? Maybe you are horny, it takes the edge of that the bodily pressures and feel good in the process. Is that bad?
It just seems like a pursuit in entirely the opposite direction as Dhamma. I don't see how it compares with those other activities you mention.
By the way, the books being read for pleasure with your tea have no educational value. Naughty books. No dhammic value.
In that respect, I highly doubt that it's possible to masturbate and yet maintain sampajanna. I think either you'd stop masturbating, or you would no longer have sampajanna. I don't think the same necessarily must be said about having sex with one's wife.
Now, that is funny. Masturbation is something within one’s control, no distractions of another person’s needs and reactions. If it is possible, it would more easily be the other way.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by cooran » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:51 am

Hello all,

Here's 19 pages from the Other List for those interested:

Addicted to masturbation
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... 46488&st=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:22 pm

Chris wrote:Hello all,

Here's 19 pages from the Other List for those interested:

Addicted to masturbation
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... 46488&st=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
And "addicted to masturbation" characterizes masturbation in all, or even most, instances? Is this something we need to so grim, so dour, about?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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