Dhamma that triggers SJWs

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binocular
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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by binocular » Wed May 22, 2019 5:57 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:53 am
would it be a deviation from the main topic if i link to eclecticism?
Not at all, ecclecticism is the general theme.
Why do those who choose to construct a belief system from different ideologies and sources are meant to justify themselves more than those who adopt a belief system based on one school of thought (when the very identification of a certain set of ideas as one unified source is merely another belief)?
Because they don't fit in, and yet have to fit themselves in, via justifying themselves.
is authority the measure of truth?
In religion, yes.
what if the authority of a certain source representing a certain figure or teacher is partially recognized?
Then that's like being only partially married. A sub-optimal situation.
or why does it have to be fully recognized? why does it have to be either this or that (i.e you either recognize the whole EBT as authentic or somehow you are being incoherent and therefore internally dishonest).
Because humans are generally cognitive misers, and misers in other ways too, such as in terms of goodwill and generosity and insight; and because they are such misers, they prefer simple black-and-white, either-or, this-or that reasoning. It's more economical that way.
Is having faith in the authenticity of the so-called EBT (without conclusive evidence except through second hand knowledge) and using it to measure the honesty or coherence of others is in itself honest?
It's religious.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by binocular » Wed May 22, 2019 6:01 pm

SDC wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:19 pm
While we waste our time correcting others, movement towards nibbana stalls.
I don't think that those are efforts to "correct others". It seems to me they are efforts to push others away or defeat, annihilate them, and thus create a safe place for oneself.

Tyranny is the best way to achieve social harmony.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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SDC
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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by SDC » Wed May 22, 2019 6:27 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 6:01 pm
SDC wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:19 pm
While we waste our time correcting others, movement towards nibbana stalls.
I don't think that those are efforts to "correct others". It seems to me they are efforts to push others away or defeat, annihilate them, and thus create a safe place for oneself.

Tyranny is the best way to achieve social harmony.
Budo can speak for himself, but I think there is a degree of comfort and validation when others fall in line at your behest as opposed to rejecting the offer.

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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by mikenz66 » Wed May 22, 2019 8:24 pm

I'm devastated to have achieved no replies to my post: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34395&start=45#p513656 where I provided some quotes where the Buddha suggested how a woman should position herself to be in control of the household. :cry:

Perhaps those are the sort of suttas that the monks in my local Wat use in their Dhamma talks to keep the women coming back.... :thinking:

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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 22, 2019 9:52 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:24 pm
I'm devastated to have achieved no replies to my post: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34395&start=45#p513656 where I provided some quotes where the Buddha suggested how a woman should position herself to be in control of the household. :cry:

Perhaps those are the sort of suttas that the monks in my local Wat use in their Dhamma talks to keep the women coming back.... :thinking:

:heart:
Mike
The quote that you provided:
A husband should serve his wife as the western quarter in five ways: by treating her with honor, by not looking down on her, by not being unfaithful, by relinquishing authority to her, and by presenting her with adornments
Actually this made me think of the ideal marriage in tough working class communities of fifty or so years ago in the UK. It's perfectly compatible with the man being a strong protector and a breadwinner; a source of male pride that he can support a domestic matriarchy. When there are few opportunities for women to work outside the home, there's something almost unmanly about getting involved in domestic bickering about the home and the children. I think we need to assume that the Buddha only had experience of societies where duties were strongly sex-segregated, and that his concern was for the sort of domestic harmony that avoids the generation of dark kamma.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 22, 2019 10:12 pm

Sam Vara"
Actually this made me think of the ideal marriage in tough working class communities of fifty or so years ago in the UK. It's perfectly compatible with the man being a strong protector and a breadwinner; a source of male pride that he can support a domestic matriarchy. When there are few opportunities for women to work outside the home, there's something almost unmanly about getting involved in domestic bickering about the home and the children. I think we need to assume that the Buddha only had experience of societies where duties were strongly sex-segregated, and that his concern was for the sort of domestic harmony that avoids the generation of dark kamma.

I’m inclined to agree.

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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by retrofuturist » Wed May 22, 2019 10:15 pm

Greetings,
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:52 pm
Actually this made me think of the ideal marriage in tough working class communities of fifty or so years ago in the UK. It's perfectly compatible with the man being a strong protector and a breadwinner; a source of male pride...
Ah... now I see how that sutta extract was on topic.

:lol:

Just kidding :tongue:
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:52 pm
When there are few opportunities for women to work outside the home, there's something almost unmanly about getting involved in domestic bickering about the home and the children. I think we need to assume that the Buddha only had experience of societies where duties were strongly sex-segregated, and that his concern was for the sort of domestic harmony that avoids the generation of dark kamma.
In all seriousness though, that's a really good analysis. Clear job segregation, and achievement in the execution of those jobs, makes it abundantly clear whether a partner is a "lifter" or a "leaner". When there is excessive overlap in responsibility for chores, there is no one person accountable for chores. In that situation, bitterness or resentment can creep in if one partner feels they are "picking up the slack" for the other. It's like a microcosmic analogue to the failures of communism and the bleak darkness that comes from the structural inability to effectively convert good action (kamma) into good fruit (vipaka).

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by Modus.Ponens » Wed May 22, 2019 10:22 pm

chownah wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 1:18 pm
clw_uk wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 11:58 am
chownah wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:17 am
How about defining exactly what an sjw is?
chownah
Someone who pushes for acceptance over tolerance at the expense of free speech and expression.
...but....according to another post:
According to the Oxford Dictionary, a social justice warrior is a derogatory term for “A person who expresses or promotes socially progressive views.”
....so....is this discussion supposed to be about "someone who pushes for acceptance over tolerance at the expense of free speech and expression"....or is it about "a person who expresses or promotes socially progressive views"? These two definitions really do define two completely different sets of people....it would be nice if we knew what people were talking about rather than to leave it undefined and up to each person's imagination to come up with whatever biased definition that person is subject to without the rest of us being aware of just what it is they are talking about.
chownah
That really is the problem. These two groups are incompatible.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by retrofuturist » Thu May 23, 2019 12:42 am

Greetings,

Trigger warning - here's a sutta that opposes the notion of "open borders" by advocating the righteousness of providing protection for those within one's jurisdiction, including the army (and I guess, by extension, police, and "border patrol" groups like ICE, in the US).
AN 3.14 wrote:“It is the Dhamma, bhikkhu,” the Blessed One said. “Here, bhikkhu, a wheel-turning monarch, a righteous king who rules by the Dhamma, relying just on the Dhamma, honoring, respecting, and venerating the Dhamma, taking the Dhamma as his standard, banner, and authority, provides righteous protection, shelter, and guard for the people in his court. Again, a wheel-turning monarch, a righteous king who rules by the Dhamma, relying just on the Dhamma, honoring, respecting, and venerating the Dhamma, taking the Dhamma as his standard, banner, and authority, provides righteous protection, shelter, and guard for his khattiya vassals, his army, brahmins and householders, the people of town and countryside, ascetics and brahmins, and the animals and birds. Having provided such righteous protection, shelter, and guard for all these beings, that wheel-turning monarch, a righteous king who rules by the Dhamma, turns the wheel solely through the Dhamma, a wheel that cannot be turned back by any hostile human being.
:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by retrofuturist » Thu May 23, 2019 12:44 am

Greetings,

Trigger warning - here's an extract from an agama*, which negates the grounds identity, and thus by extension, negates the grounds for identity politics...
A noble disciple who is endowed with the vision of the truth gains the fruit of right comprehension (abhisamaya ). If the common folk has wrong view, that has its basis in identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi ), accumulates through identity view, arises through identity view, and emerges through identity view. That is, being covered by and experiencing worry and sorrow, they [still] celebrate and cher­ish it, call it a self, call it a living being, call it out­standing, special, and hold it to be superior.

“In this way this multitude of wrongness has all been completely given up and eradicated, removed at its root; like a plantain tree it will not arise again in the future.
( * I've included an agama, because the OP was happy to include them in under the category of Early Buddhist Texts - EBTs )

Related suttas can also be found in the Pali Canon...
MN 93 wrote:One’s not a brahmin caused by “birth”,
nor caused by “birth” a non-brahmin;
a brahmin’s one by karma caused,
by karma caused a non-brahmin.

Thus according as it is
people wise do karma see;
Seers of causal relatedness,
skilled in karma, its results.

Karma makes the world go on,
people by karma, circle round;
sentient beings are bound to karma,
as a cart is pulled by a horse.

and...

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by retrofuturist » Thu May 23, 2019 12:50 am

Greetings,

Trigger warning - here is an extract from the suttas that supports individual rights, and explicitly opposes both globalism and authoritarianism...

All subjection to another is painful;
All sovereignty is Bliss
- Udana 2.9 "Visaka"

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Will
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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by Will » Thu May 23, 2019 1:36 am

Have not read all posts here, so if this point was made already - pardon.

As for definitions, the W is the key for me. W for Warrior. A Social Justice Warrior must conquer, control & dominate whatever or whoever is on the other side, as the SJW sees it.

Someone who works for those in society who suffer is not a 'warrior' but a healer & helper. The difference is stark.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by retrofuturist » Thu May 23, 2019 1:53 am

Greetings Will,
Will wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 1:36 am
Have not read all posts here, so if this point was made already - pardon.

As for definitions, the W is the key for me. W for Warrior. A Social Justice Warrior must conquer, control & dominate whatever or whoever is on the other side, as the SJW sees it.

Someone who works for those in society who suffer is not a 'warrior' but a healer & helper. The difference is stark.
Yes, the case of the SJW "warring" against the traditional Dhamma practitioner and their practice, using such methods that you described, is picked up in this topic, as per Budo's clarification on the scope of the topic, which includes...
budo wrote:To get people to see which dhamma they pick and choose (Cafeteria Buddhists). Interesting to see the Mahayanists / Visuddhimaggists on this forum use the "It's not authentic card" when it suits them, but when it comes to Zen / Vipassana, they turn a blind eye.

I am an EBT follower, I don't necessarily follow these Jataka tales because I do not know which are authentic or not until Bhikkhu Analayo and other monks are done with their research with comparing parallels (agamas, ghandaran fragments, etc..). But it's interesting to see those who accept ALL Buddhism reject this because it conflicts with their PC ideology.

So anyone who accepts the complete canon (Tripitaka) or later "Buddhisms" cannot complain about misogyny or authenticity and must accept this as well
.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by mikenz66 » Thu May 23, 2019 1:56 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 12:50 am
Greetings,

Trigger warning - here is an extract from the suttas that supports individual rights, and explicitly opposes both globalism and authoritarianism...

All subjection to another is painful;
All sovereignty is Bliss
- Udana 2.9 "Visaka"

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
I'm not sure how you read "globalism" into it. Any organisation has the risk of being authoritarian, and the authoritarianism that is most problematical is usually local, as in that sutta: https://suttacentral.net/ud2.9/en/anandajoti

But, as one of the other suttas you quoted points out, there is the advantage of protection by an organisation: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34395&start=75#p513772

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Mike

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Re: Dhamma that triggers SJWs

Post by mikenz66 » Thu May 23, 2019 2:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 1:53 am
Yes, the case of the SJW "warring" against the traditional Dhamma practitioner and their practice, ....
I'm not sure who exactly these naughty SJW's are. It all sounds a bit paranoid and identity-driven to me. All I see is people providing opinions, and of course political opinions, and opinions about how these opinions align with the Dhamma vary. Just because some think that certain rulers and/or modern developments in society are a bad thing, and speak against them doesn't necessarily mean that are not "Traditional Practitioners".

Since no-one here (as far as I can tell) is qualified to pass final judgement on who is or is not a "Real Traditional Dhamma Practitioner", it is good that the TOS states that:
At Dhamma Wheel, we respect your intellectual and spiritual autonomy.
We can read the arguments and make up our own mind. I doubt that any two of the Members of this forum would agree on every issue...

:heart:
Mike

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