Gender Equality Poll

Some topics tend to get heated and go off track in unwholesome ways quite quickly. The "hot topics" sub-forum is a place where such topics may be moved so that each post must be manually approved by moderator before it will become visible to members.

Which Gender is the Superior?

1.Male gender is the superior
7
20%
2.Female gender is the superior
2
6%
3.Both are equal
21
60%
4.Partly 3 and partly 1
5
14%
5.Partly 3 and partly 2
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 35

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 6201
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Aloka » Sun May 12, 2019 6:19 am

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:07 am
Dear, don't stick to a contesting attitude.
I've no idea what you mean.
PS: Since the beginning there were no voters who voted for the option "Female gender is superior". But now there is a one. I know it is you. And I guess you have voted for it merely due to the contesting attitude because you are a female. Don't be afraid to lose. Men will never forget women.
How condescending and rude!.... and you're wrong "dear" because I voted for number 3.

.
Last edited by Aloka on Sun May 12, 2019 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by budo » Sun May 12, 2019 6:40 am

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:03 am
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:41 am
2) Perhaps because of men's ability to focus and be single tasked, they can attain jhanas faster since they have one pointedness and single objectness. If more men can attain jhanas faster, then there is more wisdom, hence Buddhism lasts longer when there are no women ordained. If however women are ordained, then men have to explain to women how to attain such wisdom, and so teaching someone who takes longer to learn slows down everyone, thus the dhamma getting diluted faster and lasting shorter. That is maybe why nuns bow down to monks.
Do you think that the amount of contribution to the long lasting of the Dhamma/Sasana a distinguishing factor to bow down?
Doesn't venerable Ananda (sotapanna) who has contributed very highly to the long lasting of the Sasana bow down to an arahant lives in a non-Buddhist country in solitude?
Doesn't a highly contributing junior monk bow down to an unimportant senior monk.
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:41 am
3) You may be confusing historical regional events with evolutionary events..
How can Agganna Sutta be a regional event while other regions subjected to Ape's evolution?
Agganna Sutta says how first human beings are appeared on the earth. So where can Ape's evolution happen?

1) They're bowing down to wisdom, so of course individuals will bow down to more wisdom. However, women as a biological class may be bowing down to men as a biological class, since single task beings have an advantage in attaining more wisdom faster. Thus you bow down to higher wisdom so that the higher wisdom teaches you and dispels your ignorance. Hence, you bow because you wish to receive wisdom. Does a sotapanna monk bow down to an arahant nun?

Apparently, according to a jataka tale, being a man requires better karma
When I passed from that birth I was born in a family among the Vajji people but I was neither man nor woman, for it is a very hard thing to attain the being born as a man;—this was the fatal consequence of my going after other men’s wives

..

For seven births, O king, I shall be honoured and worshipped, but till the sixth is past I shall not be free from my female sex.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j6/j6010.htm

2) Agganna Sutta just talks about how higher beings became lower beings by attaining craving, it has nothing to do with classes of sapiens. It speaks of beings dividing into male and female,we don't know what kind of beings these were, whether aliens or monkeys, or whatever, just that they were beings that divided into male and female. So to compare it to modern evolution would be out of scope.
But so long as they ate those ground-sprouts, their bodies became more solid and they diverged in appearance; some beautiful, some ugly.
Animals are simply lower beings than humans, so Ape evolution into humans could just be a family of beings that were ugly with poor karma, that have become a little wiser and purer, thus having kids who became purer.

Furthermore when I said according to evolution, I meant according to nature, specifically the past 100,000 years, such as hunter and gatherer societies. So taking this off topic would be irrelevant to my original point of hunters hunting deer vs women caring for children.

sentinel
Posts: 1971
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by sentinel » Sun May 12, 2019 7:16 am

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:11 am
sentinel wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 2:22 pm
The text says , if one view ourself or something in term of inferior , superior and equal that is conceit . If there is an attachment , thus the view of " I am better , worse or parallel " would arise .
Wouldn't you bow down to monks or the Buddha saying that it is a conceit? Isn't bowing down a thought that I'm inferior.
Can you think what have we missed in the Buddha Vacana about mana?
Good question ,
I said according to the text , whether equal , superior & inferior are conceit .

Look at it another way , bowing to Buddha are Respect , an Appreciation of the Buddha qualities and attainments and not because one is lower rank or inferior .

If one practise the Four Immeasurable qualities , you Rejoice at others attainments and achievements , not because thinking Buddha is higher , I am lower or both are equal .
:buddha1:

User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Eko Care » Sun May 12, 2019 7:21 am

budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:40 am
1) They're bowing down to wisdom, so of course individuals will bow down to more wisdom. However, women as a biological class may be bowing down to men as a biological class, ... Thus you bow down to higher wisdom so that the higher wisdom teaches you and dispels your ignorance. Hence, you bow because you wish to receive wisdom.
Yes I think so.
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:40 am
since single task beings have an advantage in attaining more wisdom faster.
Is this 'single task thing' the main difference between men and women? The Kanha Sappa Sutta says about Kilesas like lust,anger etc.
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:40 am
Does a sotapanna monk bow down to an arahant nun?
Apparently, according to a jataka tale, being a man requires better karma
Here it seems the gender difference is more significant in paying respect/bowing down than the Sila, Seniority and Wisdom.
So the gender difference is the most significant in paying respect than even the Arahantship.
What do you think as the reason for this?

(Thank you very much for sharing your ideas) :thanks:

User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Eko Care » Sun May 12, 2019 7:29 am

Aloka wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:19 am
How condescending and rude!.... and you're wrong "dear" because I voted for number 3.
Sorry dear I got it wrong. :computerproblem:
As the saying goes "Women are successful complainers. Men are not successful defenders".
Last edited by Eko Care on Sun May 12, 2019 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by budo » Sun May 12, 2019 7:31 am

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:21 am
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:40 am
1) They're bowing down to wisdom, so of course individuals will bow down to more wisdom. However, women as a biological class may be bowing down to men as a biological class, ... Thus you bow down to higher wisdom so that the higher wisdom teaches you and dispels your ignorance. Hence, you bow because you wish to receive wisdom.
Yes I think so.
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:40 am
since single task beings have an advantage in attaining more wisdom faster.
Is this 'single task thing' the main difference between men and women? The Kanha Sappa Sutta says about Kilesas like lust,anger etc.
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:40 am
Does a sotapanna monk bow down to an arahant nun?
Apparently, according to a jataka tale, being a man requires better karma
Here it seems the gender difference is more significant in paying respect/bowing down than the Sila, Seniority and Wisdom.
So the gender difference is the most significant in paying respect than even the Arahantship.
What do you think as the reason for this?

(Thank you very much for sharing your ideas) :thanks:
Well, men and women have different biology, so if a biological difference allows one to concentrate better, thus attaining Samma Samadhi easier, then yes that biological difference would result in more wisdom faster or sooner. So you're still bowing down to wisdom, not gender.

Just a quick search though
Scientists found women are better at multi-tasking but men are better at concentrating on a single task after they scanned the brains of 949 people (men's brains, top, and women's brains, bottom). Undated handout photo issued by National Academy of Sciences of brain networks showing significantly increased within hemispheres in males (upper) and between hemispheres in females (lower)
Scientists scanned the brains of 949 young men and women in the biggest investigation of its kind to date.

Using hi-tech diffusion MRI imaging, they mapped the connections between the different parts of the brains.

Of the 949 participants, 428 were male and 521 were female.

They were all aged between eight and 22 and were split into three groups aged eight to 13, 13 and four months to 16, and 17 to 22.

and
The study also discovered women's brains are better designed to socialise in busy situations because the connections in their brains make it easier to remember names, faces and facts about certain people
Which imho is a hindrance to seclusion.

Here is a more authoritative source if you dislike the dailymail, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 161935.htm
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... -jobs.html

But I still didn't get a clear answer, maybe a monk could answer, would a sotapanna monk bow down to an Arahant nun?

User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Eko Care » Sun May 12, 2019 8:14 am

sentinel wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:16 am
Look at it another way , bowing to Buddha are Respect , an Appreciation of the Buddha qualities and attainments and not because one is lower rank or inferior .
If one practise the Four Immeasurable qualities , you Rejoice at others attainments and achievements , not because thinking Buddha is higher , I am lower or both are equal .
The word 'Mana'(maneti pujeti, vandana mana) which means 'considering as superior' is directly used in Suttas to mean paying respect. And the word 'Garu' (garu karoti) which means 'considering as heavy or big' is also used to mean paying respect.
Is bowing down done only as an appreciation of the qualities? Appreciating or rejoicing about someone's qualities can be done even with someone else without meeting or bowing down to the relevant person.
Without thinking some one is higher/superior/important/big in qualities how can one pay respect?
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:31 am
But I still didn't get a clear answer, maybe a monk could answer, would a sotapanna monk bow down to an Arahant nun?
Sorry I thought it was not a question.
According to my knowledge of Vinaya and as all the monks I met say,

"Even a today ordained Puthujjana monk should never bow down to a 100 years senior Arahant nun. And a 100 years senior Arahant nun must bow down to a today ordained Putujjana monk."

This is clearly mentioned in '8 Garu Dhammas'. And in somewhere else in the Vinaya, the womankind are mentioned as Avandiya (not worthy of bowing down) by the monks.

Further more even a 100 year senior Arahant nun is not allowed to give an advice to a today ordained Putujjana monk.
The Buddha has mentioned that the admonition (vacana patha) of monks by nuns is closed and vice-versa is opened.

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 6201
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Aloka » Sun May 12, 2019 8:38 am

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:29 am
As the saying goes "Women are successful complainers. Men are not successful defenders".
It's not a saying I've ever heard of myself. However, if "men are not successful defenders" maybe that's why they're always getting killed in disputes and wars with each other.


'Bye :hello:


.

sentinel
Posts: 1971
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by sentinel » Sun May 12, 2019 8:46 am

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:14 am

The word 'Mana'(maneti pujeti, vandana mana) which means 'considering as superior' is directly used in Suttas to mean paying respect. And the word 'Garu' (garu karoti) which means 'considering as heavy or big' is also used to mean paying respect.
Is bowing down done only as an appreciation of the qualities? Appreciating or rejoicing about someone's qualities can be done even with someone else without meeting or bowing down to the relevant person.
Without thinking some one is higher/superior/important/big in qualities how can one pay respect?

Well , as long one still have the self view , how is it possible for one not to arise such view .
Action came from thought , not only an action of bowing , even a thought itself is suffice to be feeling superior .

I think dhamma is two fold , bowing is mundane , in right aspiration it is wholesome .

For the vinaya , you have to take it up to the Buddha unfortunately no one could give answer .
:buddha1:

User avatar
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
Posts: 664
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:06 pm

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun May 12, 2019 9:36 am

:lol: [just thinking out loud.]



Regarding female gender, Is a woman (with female gender) superior to a man (also with female gender)? or the same?

And, Which gender is superior?
  • Man with male gender.
    Man with female gender.
    Woman with female gender.
    Woman with male gender.
    Plus:
    All possible combinations and intermediates.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and ... istinction




========
[just thinking out loud, again]

Are those with a gender superior to those without (agender)?
Many religions consider God to be agender, including Islam, Sikhism, and Hinduism.
https://www.them.us/story/inqueery-agender :thinking:


Is Buddha a male or agender? How'bout Non-returner and beyond?




========
My impression is: The most male man is the Buddha [just don't ask me why]; and also ... agender, sort of. :twothumbsup:
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Zom » Sun May 12, 2019 9:03 pm

What is your understanding/explanation of Kanhasappa sutta-1/2 and Avenika dukkha sutta?
Last one is about suffering, so what?
First two ones are addressed to monks (men). I guess if the Buddha had spoken to nuns he might have said the same about men 8-) Also, there exists another explanation like these short misogynistic texts are not Buddha's words but later addition to Canon spoken by some famous, though ignorant monks. Well, there are late additions to Canon, so this can be true.

User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 5395
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun May 12, 2019 9:10 pm

Evolution theory is not accepted in Buddhist Texts. It is an assumption of Darwin.
Its far from an assumption. Its even been observed today in crayfish.

Agganna Sutta says human beings are descending from Brahmas while Darwin says from Apes. Who do you believe most?
You mean the sutta which is a satire of Brahmin beliefs? Even if it weren't, I see no need to accept the Agganna Sutta in order to be a Buddhist since my faith is in the Buddha, not the Agganna Sutta. Humans are apes. If you take our DNA and compare it to other animals you get a family tree, not that any of this matters in terms of the Dhamma.

Anyway, just wanted to put my two cents in on this. If you wish to discuss the Agganna Sutta with me, or evolutionary biology, I'd be happy to do so if you wish to start another thread.

:focus:

ChooChoo
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:50 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by ChooChoo » Sun May 12, 2019 9:44 pm

I think both genders are equal. And yes I do believe in TWO genders. Not this weird gender is a social construct mess that they try to shove down our throats here in the west.

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 937
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon May 13, 2019 10:06 am

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:11 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:31 pm
We are all identical clones in every respect, remember.
Is there backing Suttas for this argument?
I was being sarcastic - of course we are not identical clones in every respect.

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:11 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:51 pm
In order to answer this question, we have to know (or specify) on which dimension one sex is superior to the other.
Suttas say women have higher lust and anger, higher promiscuity, two tongues etc. Doesn't it distinguish between genders?
I don't have enough of a sample to make a conclusion based on personally experienced evidence as to which dimensions the two sexes are superior or inferior to each other on. But there have been some studies which show that men and women each have their own relative proficiencies. You can find some in the references section of this Wikipedia article.

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:11 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:51 pm
Women are superior on some dimensions, men on others.
Where in the Suttas can we find dimensions in which women are superior?
It is not just the Suttas which make true statements about the world. Women have much better peripheral vision, for example.

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:11 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:06 am
I don't know. I fully admit the possibility that on average there are differences between men and women. What does this mean though for us? For individual men and women? Nothing really. It may be useful info for people who create policies that affect thousands where statistics come into play, but that's about it.
If it is so, then why those facts are mentioned in the suttas by the Blessed one?
If you can prove that these are irrelevant for individuals then I'll accept it.
You have misquoted me - this quote above was in a post made by Dan74-MkII.

But since you ask: I have a bag of rocks weighing 20kg. There are 10 rocks in the bag. The mean weight of a rock in the bag is 2 kg - this is the statistical measurement. There may be no rock in the bag that weighs 2kg. It might be that there is one big rock that weighs 9 kg, and 9 tiny rocks, each weighing around 0.1kg. The mean weight of a rock in the bag is still 2kg. That is why statistical measurements are not necessarily relevant to individuals.

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:11 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:06 am
given that identity view is conceit,
Yes. Identity view is the main obstacle. How is it related to gender characteristics?
Identity view is intimately related to gender characteristics, insofar as gender characteristics are societally constructed behaviour patterns which centre around a persons 'identity'. Identity view is not related at all to sexual characteristics, which are biologically determined, except insofar as it is caused by a persons perceptions and constructions about their sexual characteristics.

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:11 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:06 am
and these are merely statistics about the influence of biology on human capability,
Who says? Which sutta or commentary says gender characteristics are statistics only about the influence of biology?
Again, there are sources of truth which are not the Suttas. The Suttas have nothing to say about the gas composition of Jupiter, for example.

The facts on the influence of sex on behaviour, psychology, and non-concrete aspects of a human being are necessarily statistical. I can find you a woman with more testosterone than most men, but that does not change the fact that women (statistical grouping) have a lot less testosterone (biological factor) than men, and as a result display a lot less aggression (behavioural result). This statement is generally true because it is based on measurements across a sample of many, many people - it is statistical.

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:11 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:06 am
talking about it publicly should really been seen in the same light as talking about the relative prevalence of eye colour - these are just statements about measurements.
If it is such insignificant why Suttas mention gender characteristics? Suttas never mentioned about eye colour.
Do you think the effects of both gender-characteristics and eye colour are same and insignificant?
Who said it is insignificant? I certainly did not. I said that we should be able to talk about it publicly without losing our jobs, as Larry Summers did.
Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:11 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:06 am
these are just statements about measurements. Attaching ‘personal’ significance to them is a mistake,
Yes and agreed. But where did you notice a ‘personal significance" in a comparison of gender-characteristics?
I did not notice one, but others have mistakenly thought they did. People often mistake statistical statements about groups to be statements which apply to them individually. My point was that this doesn't make sense. Just because most people of X type have measurement Y, does not mean that you, who are X type, necessarily have measurement Y.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 937
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon May 13, 2019 10:32 am

DNS wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 3:04 am
Mara can only be male. :tongue:
I hear he has some pretty good looking daughters though..
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests