Gender Equality Poll

Some topics tend to get heated and go off track in unwholesome ways quite quickly. The "hot topics" sub-forum is a place where such topics may be moved so that each post must be manually approved by moderator before it will become visible to members.

Which Gender is the Superior?

1.Male gender is the superior
7
20%
2.Female gender is the superior
2
6%
3.Both are equal
21
60%
4.Partly 3 and partly 1
5
14%
5.Partly 3 and partly 2
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 35

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 937
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri May 10, 2019 7:06 am

Dan74-MkII wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 8:34 pm
Well, we can wax lyrical about 'physicists at a top-twenty five research university', as if we are part of this exalted club or have anything to do with by virtue of being male (maybe some vicarious glory will rub off on us?), but in actuality, so many factors go into making a top physicist that we have no idea 3.5 standard deviation right of what exactly??? Richard Feynman apparently had a pedestrian IQ in low 130's.

I don't know. I fully admit the possibility that on average there are differences between men and women. What does this mean though for us? For individual men and women? Nothing really. It may be useful info for people who create policies that affect thousands where statistics come into play, but that's about it.

Pseudobabble wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:31 pm
SarathW wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 3:11 am

Both women and men have strengths and weaknesses.
However, my observation is men are more extream than women.
Interestingly, Sarath, Larry Summers had the same observation:
Larry Summers wrote: It does appear that on many, many different human attributes-height, weight, propensity for criminality, overall IQ, mathematical ability, scientific ability-there is relatively clear evidence that whatever the difference in means-which can be debated-there is a difference in the standard deviation, and variability of a male and a female population. And that is true with respect to attributes that are and are not plausibly, culturally determined. If one supposes, as I think is reasonable, that if one is talking about physicists at a top twenty-five research university, one is not talking about people who are two standard deviations above the mean. And perhaps it's not even talking about somebody who is three standard deviations above the mean. But it's talking about people who are three and a half, four standard deviations above the mean in the one in 5,000, one in 10,000 class.
He also perceives men to be more extreme than women. If you look further into the matter, you'll see that Larry got in trouble, because saying such things means you are a bad boy. We are all identical clones in every respect, remember.
Who is ‘we’? Larry Summers? Me? You?

What it means for us as individuals, is that where we end up in life might well be heavily influenced by biological factors not amenable to change by government policy or cultural messaging. And ‘we’ ought to be able to talk about that publicly, without being fired or deplatformed. ‘We’ also probably shouldn’t try to legislate change on matters that cannot be changed by legislation.

A dhammic connection in this regard is related to what retro wrote above: given that identity view is conceit, and these are merely statistics about the influence of biology on human capability, talking about it publicly should really been seen in the same light as talking about the relative prevalence of eye colour - these are just statements about measurements. Attaching ‘personal’ significance to them is a mistake, Dhammically and statistically.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Eko Care » Sun May 12, 2019 12:11 am

If anyone of you could defend your arguments with Sutta quotes and with proper facts , I'll accept it.
kanhasappa sutta-1
kanhasappa sutta-2
SarathW wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 12:02 pm
What do you mean by a superior?
General meaning.
SarathW wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 12:02 pm
According to Buddhist teaching, both male and female both can attain Nibbana. (highest)
But females can not attain Buddhahood ..etc, gain equal-seniority in monkhood, nuns are less in number, are required more rules/qualifications ...etc.
SarathW wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 12:02 pm
When you attain Nibbana you eliminate all measurements (mana) such as gender equality as it not applies.
What do you say regarding these?
"Why monks respect their elders and the Buddha after achieving nibbana? Is it mana?"
"Will an arahant nun refuse bowing down to monks after achieving nibbana saying that gender difference does not apply. "
sentinel wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 2:22 pm
The text says , if one view ourself or something in term of inferior , superior and equal that is conceit . If there is an attachment , thus the view of " I am better , worse or parallel " would arise .
Wouldn't you bow down to monks or the Buddha saying that it is a conceit? Isn't bowing down a thought that I'm inferior.
Can you think what have we missed in the Buddha Vacana about mana?
DNS wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:28 pm
In terms of attaining full awakening, full enlightenment both men and women are capable of that and have done that.
But not in equal numbers. Not the Buddhahood, Cakkavatti ..etc. Then??
DNS wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:28 pm
In terms of academics and intelligence also equal. .. in recent years with women earning more advanced degrees than men.
How can materialistic academic intelligence can be related to real intelligence mentioned in Dhamma?
men earning more advanced degrees than men.
clw_uk wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 5:13 pm
both should be equal before the law and have equality of opportunity.
Law is made up by Putujjanas and differs depending on the country, clan etc.
So how can you prove your argument by relating Dhamma in Texts?
Zom wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:22 pm
According to Dhamma, there is no superior sex in this matter.
What is your understanding/explanation of Kanhasappa sutta-1/2 and Avenika dukkha sutta?
Pseudobabble wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:31 pm
We are all identical clones in every respect, remember.
Is there backing Suttas for this argument?
I have found only one Sutta saying all human beings are generally equal in ethnicity/birth. How can we all be identical in every respect?
And there are Suttas which say that the Kamma divides beigns in to superior and inferior states.
Pseudobabble wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:51 pm
In order to answer this question, we have to know (or specify) on which dimension one sex is superior to the other.
Suttas say women have higher lust and anger, higher promiscuity, two tongues etc. Doesn't it distinguish between genders?
Pseudobabble wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:51 pm
Women are superior on some dimensions, men on others.
Where in the Suttas can we find dimensions in which women are superior?
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 8:55 pm
Regarding someone as better, worse or equal is mana, conceit.
On that basis, this poll appears ill-advised.
Yes but don't an arahant bow down to the Buddha and elders? Is that conceit?
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:06 am
I don't know. I fully admit the possibility that on average there are differences between men and women. What does this mean though for us? For individual men and women? Nothing really. It may be useful info for people who create policies that affect thousands where statistics come into play, but that's about it.
If it is so, then why those facts are mentioned in the suttas by the Blessed one?
If you can prove that these are irrelevant for individuals then I'll accept it.
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:06 am
given that identity view is conceit,
Yes. Identity view is the main obstacle. How is it related to gender characteristics?
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:06 am
and these are merely statistics about the influence of biology on human capability,
Who says? Which sutta or commentary says gender characteristics are statistics only about the influence of biology?
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:06 am
talking about it publicly should really been seen in the same light as talking about the relative prevalence of eye colour - these are just statements about measurements.
If it is such insignificant why Suttas mention gender characteristics? Suttas never mentioned about eye colour.
Do you think the effects of both gender-characteristics and eye colour are same and insignificant?
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:06 am
these are just statements about measurements. Attaching ‘personal’ significance to them is a mistake,
Yes and agreed. But where did you notice a ‘personal significance" in a comparison of gender-characteristics?

SarathW
Posts: 12020
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by SarathW » Sun May 12, 2019 1:31 am

What do you say regarding these?
"Why monks respect their elders and the Buddha after achieving nibbana? Is it mana?"
"Will an arahant nun refuse bowing down to monks after achieving nibbana saying that gender difference does not apply. "
Arahant still respect social norms.
If you do not respect social norms means that you still have Mana.
Not every monk is an Arahant, so they need certain rules.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Eko Care » Sun May 12, 2019 2:13 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 1:31 am
Arahant still respect social norms. If you do not respect social norms means that you still have Mana.
Ok.
SarathW wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 1:31 am
Not every monk is an Arahant, so they need certain rules.
I have read that paying respect/bowing down is required not only as a rule but also as a Kusala to be done repeatedly. (culla kamma vibhanga sutta, maha mangala sutta).
Paying respect is also called as 'doing Mana'. (Vandana Mana, Maneti Pujeti).
If Mana is completely an Akusala as implied by many of the above posts, why putujjana monks and upasakas are asked to 'do Mana' to elders frequently?

If the inferior/superior categorization of genders is wrong then why the Buddha preached those Kanhasappa suttas? Again there are Suttas in that the Blessed One nominates inferior people Vasala, Bala ..etc. and superior people Ariya, Brahmana, Pandita ..etc.
SarathW wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 3:11 am
Both women and men have strengths and weaknesses.
Could you explain some of the weaknesses of men (in Kilesa-wise) over women?
Could you give Sutta references to show that?

User avatar
xofz
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:29 pm
Location: WA, USA
Contact:

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by xofz » Sun May 12, 2019 2:20 am

In terms of existence and getting things done, there is no greater motivation than a woman. I voted them superior for that reason. If one wishes to sidestep existence entirely, then of course a male exposed to Buddha early would be best.
becoming aware!

SarathW
Posts: 12020
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by SarathW » Sun May 12, 2019 2:58 am

I voted them superior for that reason.
Perhaps this could be the reason that women are required to bow down to men to eradicate their Mana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 12474
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by DNS » Sun May 12, 2019 3:04 am

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:11 am
DNS wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:28 pm
In terms of attaining full awakening, full enlightenment both men and women are capable of that and have done that.
But not in equal numbers. Not the Buddhahood, Cakkavatti ..etc. Then??
Not Samma-Sam-Buddhahood, but not Mara, either. ;) Mara can only be male. :tongue:

At MN 73 the Buddha states that there are more than 500 arahant monks. In the same sutta he states that there are more than 500 arahant nuns.
“Leaving aside Master Gotama, is there even a single monk disciple of Master Gotama who has realized the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life, and lives having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements?”

“There are not just one hundred such monks who are my disciples, Vaccha, or two or three or four or five hundred, but many more than that.”
“Leaving aside Master Gotama and the monks, is there even a single nun disciple of Master Gotama who has realized the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life, and lives having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements?”

“There are not just one hundred such nuns who are my disciples, Vaccha, or two or three or four or five hundred, but many more than that.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn73/en/sujato

User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Eko Care » Sun May 12, 2019 4:01 am

DNS wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 3:04 am
Not Samma-Sam-Buddhahood, but not Mara, either. ;) Mara can only be male. :tongue:
Yes. Some people believe manhood is about power- good or bad and womanhood is about weakness- good or bad.
DNS wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 3:04 am
At MN 73 the Buddha states that there are more than 500 arahant monks. In the same sutta he states that there are more than 500 arahant nuns.
But there is a Vianaya rule restricting a preceptor nun to ordain females in the same number a monk preceptor has been allowed.
Considering it and current Theravada countries' monks and nuns numbers, we can say that females ordain less in number than monks.

Disciple
Posts: 391
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:13 pm

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Disciple » Sun May 12, 2019 4:05 am

Choice 1 for obvious reasons

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by budo » Sun May 12, 2019 4:44 am

None of the above.

Neither are equal, and neither are superior than each other.

Both have seperate roles defined through evolution.

Women are multi-taskers because they need to keep one eye on the baby at all times.

Men are single taskers because they can't take their eyes off the deer they're hunting with a bow, otherwise the whole family will starve.

Look to evolution to understand humans.

So men and women are not equal but also not superior than eachother. Team work makes the dream work.

User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Eko Care » Sun May 12, 2019 5:28 am

budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:44 am
None of the above. Neither are equal, and neither are superior than each other. Both have seperate roles defined through evolution.
So men and women are not equal but also not superior than eachother. Team work makes the dream work.
It is obvious that they are complimentary genders. But it doesn't mean non-equal non-superior/inferior state. Is there any two non-equal things in the world without a comparative superiority/inferiority between them? (neither equal nor superior/inferior argument is illogical.) If anything is non-equal to other thing, it should be either inferior or superior. (or combination of inferior and superior qualities which has an average value of inferior or superior).
If your argument is true then why nuns are required to bow down to monks according to Vinaya?
Is your opinion backed by Suttas?
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:44 am
Women are multi-taskers .. Men are single taskers ..
Isn't this a weakness of women over men? (don't think in existence-wise, think in kusala-wise)
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:44 am
Look to evolution to understand humans.
Evolution theory is not accepted in Buddhist Texts. It is an assumption of Darwin.
Agganna Sutta says human beings are descending from Brahmas while Darwin says from Apes. Who do you believe most?

Joke: Are you descending from a ___ ? :rofl:

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by budo » Sun May 12, 2019 5:41 am

Eko Care wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:28 am
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:44 am
None of the above. Neither are equal, and neither are superior than each other. Both have seperate roles defined through evolution.
So men and women are not equal but also not superior than eachother. Team work makes the dream work.
It is obvious that they are complimentary genders. But it doesn't mean non-equal non-superior/inferior state. Is there any non-equal things in the world without a superiority or inferiority?
If your argument is true then why nuns are required to bow down to monks according to Vinaya?
Is your opinion backed by Suttas?
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:44 am
Women are multi-taskers .. Men are single taskers ..
Isn't this a weakness of women over men? (don't think in existence-wise, think in kusala-wise)
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:44 am
Look to evolution to understand humans.
Evolution theory is not accepted in Buddhist Texts. It is an assumption of Darwin.
Agganna Sutta says human beings are descending from Brahmas while Darwin says from Apes. Who do you believe most?

Joke: Are you descending from a ___ ? :rofl:
1) In nature all that matters is survival and reproduction, that's what makes something "Good" or "Bad". All nature wants you to do is age to adulthood, have kids, and die off. To nature men and women are not equal, but also not superior or inferior, as men specialize in survival, and women specialize in reproduction.

2) Perhaps because of men's ability to focus and be single tasked, they can attain jhanas faster since they have one pointedness and single objectness. If more men can attain jhanas faster, then there is more wisdom, hence Buddhism lasts longer when there are no women ordained. If however women are ordained, then men have to explain to women how to attain such wisdom, and so teaching someone who takes longer to learn slows down everyone, thus the dhamma getting diluted faster and lasting shorter. That is maybe why nuns bow down to monks.

3) You may be confusing historical regional events with evolutionary events..

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 6201
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Aloka » Sun May 12, 2019 5:57 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 8:55 pm
Greetings,

Regarding someone as better, worse or equal is mana, conceit.

On that basis, this poll appears ill-advised.

Metta,
Paul. :)

Yes I agree, and I wonder if the fact that there are very few active female members at Dhamma Wheel has also been taken into consideration.

.

User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Eko Care » Sun May 12, 2019 6:03 am

budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:41 am
2) Perhaps because of men's ability to focus and be single tasked, they can attain jhanas faster since they have one pointedness and single objectness. If more men can attain jhanas faster, then there is more wisdom, hence Buddhism lasts longer when there are no women ordained. If however women are ordained, then men have to explain to women how to attain such wisdom, and so teaching someone who takes longer to learn slows down everyone, thus the dhamma getting diluted faster and lasting shorter. That is maybe why nuns bow down to monks.
Do you think that the amount of contribution to the long lasting of the Dhamma/Sasana a distinguishing factor to bow down?
Doesn't venerable Ananda (sotapanna) who has contributed very highly to the long lasting of the Sasana bow down to an arahant lives in a non-Buddhist country in solitude?
Doesn't a highly contributing junior monk bow down to an unimportant senior monk.
budo wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:41 am
3) You may be confusing historical regional events with evolutionary events..
How can Agganna Sutta be a regional event while other regions subjected to Ape's evolution?
Agganna Sutta says how first human beings are appeared on the earth. So where can Ape's evolution happen?

User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: Gender Equality Poll

Post by Eko Care » Sun May 12, 2019 6:07 am

Aloka wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:57 am
I wonder if the fact that there are very few active female members at Dhamma Wheel has also been taken into consideration.
Dear, don't stick to a contesting attitude. We need only to get the Dhamma facts clarified by examining the ideas and opinions given by each other.

PS: Since the beginning there were no voters who voted for the option "Female gender is superior". But now there is a one. I know it is you. And I guess you have voted for it merely due to the contesting attitude because you are a female. Don't be afraid to lose. Men will never forget women. :heart:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests