Romantic Love

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Aloka
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Romantic Love

Postby Aloka » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:01 am

Ven Thich Nhat Hanh answers the question "Why doesn't Buddhism support romantic love" (approx 8 minutes)


phpBB [video]



Any comments ? :anjali:


.

dhammarelax
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby dhammarelax » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:28 am

Aloka wrote:Ven Thich Nhat Hanh answers the question "Why doesn't Buddhism support romantic love" (approx 8 minutes)


phpBB [video]



Any comments ? :anjali:


.


He is not Theravada so I am not sure if its worth the discussion, anyhow:

Aloka do you find his teaching to be in accord with MN 21 The simile of the saw?

"If anyone gives those bhikkunis a blow with his hand, with a clod, with a stick.....you should train thus "My mind will be unaffected".

If you read Thanissaros Bhikus essays you will find the explanation of how Buddhism is sometimes corrupted by romantic notions like inclusiveness.

In a nutshell I dont think he is teaching Buddhism.

Smile all the time
Dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

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Ben
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby Ben » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:48 am

Thank you Aloka for posting this.
Dhammawheel will always be inclusive and if anyone has a problem with this then I suggest they leave.
With metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Aloka
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby Aloka » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:22 pm

Ben wrote:Thank you Aloka for posting this.
Dhammawheel will always be inclusive and if anyone has a problem with this then I suggest they leave.
With metta
Ben


Thank you Ben. As this is the Open Dhamma forum, I thought it would be interesting for members to discuss what Ven Thich Nhat Hanh (A highly respected teacher in the Buddhist world) has to say about loving relationships between lay couples.


:anjali:

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clw_uk
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:05 pm

It's a nice brief talk. I wouldn't agree that romantic love is happiness, since it's dukkha.
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:28 pm

clw_uk wrote:It's a nice brief talk. I wouldn't agree that romantic love is happiness, since it's dukkha.
I think this statement needs to be carefully qualified.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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clw_uk
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:34 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:It's a nice brief talk. I wouldn't agree that romantic love is happiness, since it's dukkha.
I think this statement needs to be carefully qualified.



What I meant was that romantic love can be a source of worldly happiness, and it can be noble and wholesome, however the feelings and the object of the sexual desire are inherently dukkha. By that I mean in the sense of causing mental "pain" through their change (death, falling out of love with you etc).

I guess the question is, can you romantically love someone and not be attached?
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
Sextus Empiricus

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tiltbillings
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:01 pm

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:It's a nice brief talk. I wouldn't agree that romantic love is happiness, since it's dukkha.
I think this statement needs to be carefully qualified.



What I meant was that romantic love can be a source of worldly happiness, and it can be noble and wholesome, however the feelings and the object of the sexual desire are inherently dukkha. By that I mean in the sense of causing mental "pain" through their change (death, falling out of love with you etc).

I guess the question is, can you romantically love someone and not be attached?
Interestingly, you really are not addressing what the Venerable had to say.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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clw_uk
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:09 pm

tilltbillings -

Interestingly, you really are not addressing what the Venerable had to say.



I thought I touched upon it:

"What I meant was that romantic love can be a source of worldly happiness"


Which the venerable discussed in terms of the 4 brahma viharas, unless I missed something?
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
Sextus Empiricus

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ihrjordan
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby ihrjordan » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:14 pm

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:It's a nice brief talk. I wouldn't agree that romantic love is happiness, since it's dukkha.
I think this statement needs to be carefully qualified.



What I meant was that romantic love can be a source of worldly happiness, and it can be noble and wholesome, however the feelings and the object of the sexual desire are inherently dukkha. By that I mean in the sense of causing mental "pain" through their change (death, falling out of love with you etc).

I guess the question is, can you romantically love someone and not be attached?


Those that are engaged in such relationships will argue till death that it is possible to not be attached, whereas the Buddhas original teachings say otherwise...and It's important to realize that 99.99% of romantic relationships do have the things listed in his talk which would disqualify such relationships from being true love according to his teaching. This was clearly a showing of skillful means so as to not offend those that were enshrouded by ignorance. This goes over most peoples heads and instead all they hear is "Romantic relationships can be true love?" "Nice, I guess I'll just keep doing what I've been doing and hopefully new results come"...they never do.

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Re: Romantic Love

Postby daverupa » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:17 pm

clw_uk wrote:...romantic love can be a source of worldly happiness... however the feelings and the object of the sexual desire are inherently dukkha.


It seems that most people think romantic love is sexual; that a romantic love could not exist between two celibate people. Is this true? Is "romantic" love code for "sexually active" love?

Because if I ask, "Can there be a wholesome sexuality?" I have to answer, Yes. "An unwholesome sexuality?" Yes, as well.

"But is there a liberative sexuality?" I must say, No. There is no such thing in the Buddhadhamma.

---

So: what about romantic love? Well, it depends: AN 10.75 applies directly to the matter at hand (on that link, find "5. Migasālāsuttaṃ"; I read Bodhi's translation, however).
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:21 pm

clw_uk wrote:tilltbillings -

Interestingly, you really are not addressing what the Venerable had to say.



I thought I touched upon it:

"What I meant was that romantic love can be a source of worldly happiness"


Which the venerable discussed in terms of the 4 brahma viharas, unless I missed something?
That is pretty much it; however, "romantic love" in the terms the Venerable discussed is a bit more than just a source of worldly happiness.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: Romantic Love

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:27 pm

I believe that since nature wants us to reproduce, romantic love is just a way of talking to cover (maybe even from oneself) the real instincts.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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clw_uk
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:30 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:tilltbillings -

Interestingly, you really are not addressing what the Venerable had to say.



I thought I touched upon it:

"What I meant was that romantic love can be a source of worldly happiness"


Which the venerable discussed in terms of the 4 brahma viharas, unless I missed something?
That is pretty much it; however, "romantic love" in the terms the Venerable discussed is a bit more than just a source of worldly happiness.


Could you expand, as I get the feeling I'm being exceedingly dense :reading:
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
Sextus Empiricus

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tiltbillings
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:31 pm

Alex123 wrote:I believe that since nature wants us to reproduce, romantic love is just a way of talking to cover (maybe even from oneself) the real instincts.
Possibly, but as the Venerable makes quite clear, romantic love can be far more that that, which certainly been so for me in the last 20+ years I have been with my one and only dear true.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Bundokji
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby Bundokji » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:40 pm

Hello Aloka :smile:

Our ideas of romance and relationships in general has been affected a lot by mainstream media which in most cases does not propagate anything that is praiseworthy.

Our modern life style encourages self-centeredness and role playing (no wonder divorce rates continue to rise), but I believe that there are still people in our world who are capable of experiencing pure love based on mutual respect and selflessness.

To sum up, its not always what we do, but how we do it that matters. A wise human being might look from the outside as everyone else, but the interplay of forces within her would be completely different.

Romantic love.jpg
Romantic love.jpg (68.48 KiB) Viewed 1376 times


Peace :anjali:
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robertk
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby robertk » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:42 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:I believe that since nature wants us to reproduce, romantic love is just a way of talking to cover (maybe even from oneself) the real instincts.
Possibly, but as the Venerable makes quite clear, romantic love can be far more that that, which certainly been so for me in the last 20+ years I have been with my one and only dear true.

That is really nice to hear Tilt! :anjali:

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tiltbillings
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:42 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Could you expand, as I get the feeling I'm being exceedingly dense
The Venerable is putting romantic love into a context of an actual, practical practice of the Brahma Viharas, which I think, and I know, is reasonable and doable, and is a real way of bringing Dhamma practice to one's daily life with another human being at a kitchen sink, day-to-day, face-to-face, level.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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tiltbillings
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:45 pm

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:I believe that since nature wants us to reproduce, romantic love is just a way of talking to cover (maybe even from oneself) the real instincts.
Possibly, but as the Venerable makes quite clear, romantic love can be far more that that, which certainly been so for me in the last 20+ years I have been with my one and only dear true.

That is really nice to hear Tilt! :anjali:
Thank you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

dhammarelax
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Re: Romantic Love

Postby dhammarelax » Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:05 pm

clw_uk wrote:tilltbillings -

Interestingly, you really are not addressing what the Venerable had to say.



I thought I touched upon it:

"What I meant was that romantic love can be a source of worldly happiness"


Which the venerable discussed in terms of the 4 brahma viharas, unless I missed something?


Hi clw_uk

I am afraid I have to point to you that he is not discussing it in terms of the 4 Brahma Viharas, ostensibly the 4rth Brahma Vihara (Equanimity) is absent from the video, its is replaced with "Inclusiveness".

smile all the time
dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5


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