i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

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Khalil Bodhi
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:54 pm

Everyone,

It may help to remember that Acinteyyo's mother tongue is not English despite how well he writes.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:56 pm

Khalil Bodhi wrote:Everyone,
It may help to remember that Acinteyyo's mother tongue is not English despite how well he writes.

Thanks, for the compliment and the reminder ;)
tiltbillings wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:I think to use the term "deviant" is correct.
Seriously? Despite the negative connotations of the word deviant is freighted with, you seriously think it is appropriate, correct?

clw_uk wrote:Acinteyyo -
It's a normal variation of sexuality, which occurs in a minority of people. The word "deviant" implies that it's a behaviour which strays from accepted norms. This is the basis of the "it's not natural, it's a choice" argument which, as demonstrated by my reference to the bonobos, is a fallacy.

I've checked different dictionaries and realized that there really is a negative connotation to the word "deviant" that I did not know of. So I understand your reactions. I'm not going to argue whether or not bonobos are a valid comparison to humans.

What I'm trying to say is quite similar to what clw_uk said. It's a normal variation of sexuality, which occurs in a minority. Maybe "variant" is a better word?

Anyhow, homosexuality is not normal given the fact that it occurs only in a minority of people. It appears to me, that homosexuality sometimes is represented as being normal in such a way, as if it occured in a relatively normal ratio compared to the majority of people being heterosexual and as if it wouldn't be anything special at all. However that is simply not quite how it appears in reality. I'm not talking about acceptance or condemnation of any kind but about the simple figures displaying the average occurances.

Homosexuality is a "deviation from the norm" and this meaning, without any negative connotations, is what I've had in mind when I've said, that I think it is correct to use the term "deviant". I now acknowledge the implications that are caused by that word. So I'll try to be more cautious.
Aloka wrote:
acinteyyo wrote: it is far from being normal and I think it's simply incorrect to try to represent it like so.
You are failing to see how homosexuality is a deviant behaviour

Sorry but I just don't see my gay friends as abnormal deviants.
:anjali:

I don't have gay friends but I've made acquaintances with gays and of course I also don't see them as "abnormal deviants", with all the negative connotations implied, but I also don't ingore the fact, that their sexual orientation is a deviation from the norm, and that their behaviour is the behaviour of a minority. I also want to emphasize that simple "abnormal behaviour" does not make an "abnormal human".

What I really fail to see is why people seem to be very emotional when it comes to homosexuality. If it really was nothing special, then there wouldn't be all the hassle about it. That's why I usually prefer to keep my mouth shut, because a simple sexual preference really isn't worth the trouble.

I hope I could clarify my statement.

best wishes, acinteyyo
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:20 pm

acinteyyo wrote:Anyhow, homosexuality is not normal given the fact that it occurs only in a minority of people.
It is a normal variation that is found among a minority of human beings.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Bundokji » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:43 pm

acinteyyo wrote:What I really fail to see is why people seem to be very emotional when it comes to homosexuality. If it really was nothing special, then there wouldn't be all the hassle about it. That's why I usually prefer to keep my mouth shut, because a simple sexual preference really isn't worth the trouble.


I tried to convey the same idea before and I got hated for it, not on this forum though :smile:
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby SDC » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:56 pm

acinteyyo wrote:What I really fail to see is why people seem to be very emotional when it comes to homosexuality. If it really was nothing special, then there wouldn't be all the hassle about it.


Many people have gone through years of hard work and struggle to get people to merely acknowledge it as an actual way to be. And now that it is truly 'out' there, well on its way to being accepted for the most part, it is a very sensitive time. Emotions are high but will settle in the years to come.

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:13 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:Anyhow, homosexuality is not normal given the fact that it occurs only in a minority of people.
It is a normal variation that is found among a minority of human beings.

Yes it is. Like green eyes for example which is also a normal variation among human beings. Yet only 2 - 4% of the worlds population have green eyes, round about 90% have brown eyes, which therefore is to be seen as the norm, whereas green eyes being a perfectly normal variation is only found in a minority of human beings, thus not the norm.

I guess I have nothing more to add to this conversation.

best wishes, acinteyyo
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby clw_uk » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:36 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:How many eunuchs are in the western democracies? People in the west never committed this kind of bad karma that supposedly leads to be born as an eunuch?

The word "eunuch" is just the translation of the Pāli word "Pandaka." The Sayādaw's article was written many years ago. All sexual deviants: homosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals, and eunuchs are included under the term Pandaka. See The Buddhist Monastic Code for details.




Wouldn't that mean that gay mean are prohibited from ordaining?

As I previously mentioned I am gay. I have considered ordaining many times, and I hopefully will in the future. If pandaka means homosexual, does that mean I shouldn't go forth?
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:51 am

SDC wrote:Many people have gone through years of hard work and struggle to get people to merely acknowledge it as an actual way to be. And now that it is truly 'out' there, well on its way to being accepted for the most part, it is a very sensitive time. Emotions are high but will settle in the years to come.


Yes, it's been a long struggle and there is still a long way to go in some countries.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby dhammacoustic » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:55 am

clw_uk wrote:As I previously mentioned I am gay. I have considered ordaining many times, and I hopefully will in the future. If pandaka means homosexual, does that mean I shouldn't go forth?


I don't think sexual orientation would matter, once you're ordained ;)

For the ordained monk, there are four cardinal rules which, if broken, result in his expulsion from the monkhood. These are:
Engaging in sexual relations,


http://www.chiangmai-chiangrai.com/beco ... iland.html
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Aloka » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:33 am

Bundokji wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:What I really fail to see is why people seem to be very emotional when it comes to homosexuality. If it really was nothing special, then there wouldn't be all the hassle about it. That's why I usually prefer to keep my mouth shut, because a simple sexual preference really isn't worth the trouble.


I tried to convey the same idea before and I got hated for it, not on this forum though :smile:


If you are refering to the topics where you expressed your views on homosexuality & gay marriage at my website, Mohammed, here's one of them, and I don't see anyone expressing hatred towards you.

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/showthread.php?2340-Why-Buddhists-Should-Support-Marriage-Equality&highlight=Bundokji

:anjali:

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Mr Man » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:38 am

clw_uk wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:How many eunuchs are in the western democracies? People in the west never committed this kind of bad karma that supposedly leads to be born as an eunuch?

The word "eunuch" is just the translation of the Pāli word "Pandaka." The Sayādaw's article was written many years ago. All sexual deviants: homosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals, and eunuchs are included under the term Pandaka. See The Buddhist Monastic Code for details.




Wouldn't that mean that gay mean are prohibited from ordaining?

As I previously mentioned I am gay. I have considered ordaining many times, and I hopefully will in the future. If pandaka means homosexual, does that mean I shouldn't go forth?


Hi clw_uk
I'm not sure if you were hoping for a direct response from Bhikkhu Pesala but Bhante Sujato addresses the question in a comment on his blog -

"Deserves a full post, but briefly, there is no question that ordaining people of diverse sexualities is fine under the Vinaya. It is also fine to ordain trans people. Monks who say otherwise are basing themselves on traditional prejudice, not on the Vinaya."

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2015/06/15 ... editation/

He also proposes a theory that pandika was originally "defined not by orientation or physical marks, but by unbridled and toxic sex addiction.".

Hopefully I have not misunderstood or misrepresented Bhante Sujato's view by giving it a new context here.

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:44 am

clw_uk wrote:Wouldn't that mean that gay mean are prohibited from ordaining?

No it doesn't mean that. There are five kinds of pandaka. As I said, see the Buddhist Monastic Code for details. If you're contemplating ordination I recommend reading it carefully.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby clw_uk » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:07 am

Acinteyyo -

Anyhow, homosexuality is not normal given the fact that it occurs only in a minority of people. It appears to me, that homosexuality sometimes is represented as being normal in such a way, as if it occured in a relatively normal ratio compared to the majority of people being heterosexual and as if it wouldn't be anything special at all. However that is simply not quite how it appears in reality. I'm not talking about acceptance or condemnation of any kind but about the simple figures displaying the average occurances.

Homosexuality is a "deviation from the norm" and this meaning, without any negative connotations, is what I've had in mind when I've said, that I think it is correct to use the term "deviant". I now acknowledge the implications that are caused by that word. So I'll try to be more cautious.



The problem is that normal is relative. If we look at the bonobo species, it isn't normal to not engage in homosexual activity

The bonobo, an African ape closely related to humans, has an even bigger sexual appetite. Studies suggest 75 percent of bonobo sex is nonreproductive and that nearly all bonobos are bisexual. Frans de Waal, author of Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, calls the species a "make love, not war" primate. He believes bonobos use sex to resolve conflicts between individuals.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... al_2.html;


I assume your not a homosexual, so you probably don't understand what it feels like to be called a "deviant" or 'not normal".

Although I have been lucky, in the sense of being accepted by my family and friends, I still have to occasionally hear hate filled speech from adherents of certain faiths (mostly Abrahamic) who consider me evil, dangerous, a freak and even in some cases consider me worthy of death.

The usual argument these people use is that homosexuality is "against nature" or it's a deviant sexual activity that we choose to engage it, or some other claptrap.

So you see, although I'm sure you don't mean to cause offence, calling a gay man or woman a "deviant" or "not normal" won't be taken very well and it will usually illicit an emotional response; because homosexuals have had to put up with being stigmatised as outcasts for centuries and the usual justification for this persecution is that we are abnormal.

As i said, I have been lucky but I know a lot of lgbt people who aren't so lucky. Even today homosexuals are being murdered in counties such as Iran, because they are viewed as being "deviants"
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Herbie » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:39 am

wolf1 wrote:forum mebers,

i am a woman but i like women. is it really bad?

Obviously there are different types of "like". I can't remember that liking people every has been considered "bad" by anyone I met.
Inspiration is based on the exchange of different linguistic expressions. But inspiration is best knowing how language relates to truth. :smile:

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:11 am

Hello, clw_uk.

I hope I'm not misrepresenting Bhante Dhammanando's position, but he once clarified this pandaka term as not necessarily meaning homosexual, but as meaning someone too controled by their own sexual urges.
A homosexual who dresses in drag might be an example. Or a gay man that never had a stable relationship and "parties" every night at a gay club.

There is a specific separation between bhikkhus and bhikkhunis because sex is a very powerful force. It would be detrimental for the path if monks and nuns could have the exact same freedom of association as lay men and women, except for the sexual acts themselves. So, if a homosexual joined the sangha, but was sexualy unrestrained, it won't be good for him, nor the local community of monks.

There is nothing moraly wrong, or evil, with homosexuality. It's just less usual than heterosexuality. And these categories may overlap, even temporarily. The real reason for the existence of homophobia is understood if you read a bit about evolutionary psychology. But keep in mind that just because something exists because of evolution, it doesn't mean it is moraly correct.

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He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:19 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:A homosexual who dresses in drag might be an example. Or a gay man that never had a stable relationship and "parties" every night at a gay club.


Straight men do those things too of course.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Mr Man » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:08 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:The real reason for the existence of homophobia is understood if you read a bit about evolutionary psychology.

We might find a different "real reason" in Freudian psychology.

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby clw_uk » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:48 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:The real reason for the existence of homophobia is understood if you read a bit about evolutionary psychology.

We might find a different "real reason" in Freudian psychology.



Ultimately it's born from the aversion of what's different, which can be reinforced by certain religious and cultural influences.

I find it interesting that gay men are targeted more often than gay women. In my experience it's seen as more tolerable for a woman to be gay than a man. Personally I think this has ties to sexism. Homophobes tend to dislike gay men more as they are perceived to be acting in an effinamte manner, which is seen as a threat to masculinity. A corollary of this seems to be that male homophobes tend to perceive women as being weaker than men, so for a man to act in an effeminate manner is intolerable; whereas it's not so intolerable for a women to act like a man by having sex with other women, as this is seen as being more masculine/strong.

Of course this isn't true for all homophobic behaviour, but it seems to be latent in the majority of cases I've witnessed.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:57 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:The real reason for the existence of homophobia is understood if you read a bit about evolutionary psychology.

We might find a different "real reason" in Freudian psychology.



Ultimately it's born from the aversion of what's different, which can be reinforced by certain religious and cultural influences.
And what is interesting is that the aversion can dramatically be set aside for many people, as we very recently saw in Ireland.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Mr Man » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:06 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:The real reason for the existence of homophobia is understood if you read a bit about evolutionary psychology.

We might find a different "real reason" in Freudian psychology.



Ultimately it's born from the aversion of what's different, which can be reinforced by certain religious and cultural influences.



Yep, that is what I would think.


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