i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

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clw_uk
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby clw_uk » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:27 pm

Tiltbillings

And what is interesting is that the aversion can dramatically be set aside for many people, as we very recently saw in Ireland.



Yes thankfully, as well as the US :twothumbsup:
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:30 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:A homosexual who dresses in drag might be an example. Or a gay man that never had a stable relationship and "parties" every night at a gay club.


Straight men do those things too of course.


Yes, they do. But they have restrictions to free assembly with women, their objects of desire. Whereas a pandaka would have free assembly with men, their objects of desire. And that's not good for either party. A normal homosexual, though, would not pose a significant problem. There have probably been many gay men in robes since the time of the Buddha, with many of them becoming great teachers. It's not about orientation per se. It's about an extravagant sexual behaviour which poses a problem to the harmony in the sangha.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:39 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:The real reason for the existence of homophobia is understood if you read a bit about evolutionary psychology.

We might find a different "real reason" in Freudian psychology.


I don't understand what you're trying to say. Evolutionary psychology is a scientific-evidence-based field of psychology, unlike psychoanalysis. Even though there's a lot of interesting and true things in psychoanalysis, it does not have the same solid evidence base as evolutionary psychology. At least, this is what I've learned as a lay man on psychology.

And again, just because something is favored by evolution it doesn't mean that it is moraly right. Or else we would be killing a lot more people, for example.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:12 am

clw_uk wrote:
And what is interesting is that the aversion can dramatically be set aside for many people, as we very recently saw in Ireland.

Yes thankfully, as well as the US :twothumbsup:


Yes, and the UK too. But sadly there are still many countries where gays are oppressed and victimised, so there is still a long way to go.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:36 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:The real reason for the existence of homophobia is understood if you read a bit about evolutionary psychology.

We might find a different "real reason" in Freudian psychology.


I don't understand what you're trying to say. Evolutionary psychology is a scientific-evidence-based field of psychology, unlike psychoanalysis. Even though there's a lot of interesting and true things in psychoanalysis, it does not have the same solid evidence base as evolutionary psychology. At least, this is what I've learned as a lay man on psychology.

And again, just because something is favored by evolution it doesn't mean that it is moraly right. Or else we would be killing a lot more people, for example.


My point is that Evolutionary psychology may offer a reason but it cannot be called "The real reason".

Criticism of evolutionary psychology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism ... estability

but I am going off topic here - appoligies

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby chownah » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:14 am

Haven't read most of this thread but one factor which some mentioned as a detractor to same sex sex is that it goes against social norms. I think these people should take a look at the fact that same sex marriage is now legal everywhere in the USA so it seems that same sex sex has been officially sanctioned. I guess then that social norms can not be used as a detractor for same sex sex in the USA.
chownah

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Bundokji » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:32 pm

chownah wrote:Haven't read most of this thread but one factor which some mentioned as a detractor to same sex sex is that it goes against social norms. I think these people should take a look at the fact that same sex marriage is now legal everywhere in the USA so it seems that same sex sex has been officially sanctioned. I guess then that social norms can not be used as a detractor for same sex sex in the USA.
chownah


Social norms and civil law are two different things. For example, in Saudia Arabia there is no civil law that ban women from driving, but its socially unacceptable.

However, law makers can accelerate social change. Once again, back in the sixties, the religious community in Saudia Arabia was against female education, and when the king at that time (king Faisal) wanted to establish a school for Females, most of the conservatives protested, but he insisted that its not compulsory and if they don't want to educate their daughters no one would force them to do so. Nowadays female education is the norm in Saudia Arabia.

Peace :namaste:
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:08 pm

clw_uk wrote:The problem is that normal is relative. If we look at the bonobo species, it isn't normal to not engage in homosexual activity.

The bonobo, an African ape closely related to humans, has an even bigger sexual appetite. Studies suggest 75 percent of bonobo sex is nonreproductive and that nearly all bonobos are bisexual. Frans de Waal, author of Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, calls the species a "make love, not war" primate. He believes bonobos use sex to resolve conflicts between individuals.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... al_2.html;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is all nice and interesting to some extent, but bonobos aren't humans and that they are closely related to humans proves nothing. Pigs are also closely related to humans, that doesn't mean that the behaviour of pigs is comparable to humans.

clw_uk wrote:I assume your not a homosexual, so you probably don't understand what it feels like to be called a "deviant" or 'not normal".

I'm not, you are right but I think I know what it feels like to be called a "deviant" or "not normal". Maybe I just lack empathy. The thing is I don't understand why it's so important for you for example to be called "normal".
I'll give you a comparison.
I'm the only buddhist in my family and circle of friends. Some accept that, others tell me they think I'm not normal. However I don't have a problem with those who call me weird or a hippie because I meditate. I just don't expect them to consider any of my behaviour to be "normal".

clw_uk wrote:So you see, although I'm sure you don't mean to cause offence, calling a gay man or woman a "deviant" or "not normal" won't be taken very well and it will usually illicit an emotional response; because homosexuals have had to put up with being stigmatised as outcasts for centuries and the usual justification for this persecution is that we are abnormal.

I understand that and that's why I usually refrain from saying anything, because I don't want to create negative emotional responses.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:52 am

acinteyyo -


This is all nice and interesting to some extent, but bonobos aren't humans and that they are closely related to humans proves nothing. Pigs are also closely related to humans, that doesn't mean that the behaviour of pigs is comparable to humans.


Your missing my point, which was that what is "normal" is relative. In terms of nature as a whole, homosexuality is quite normal.


I'm not, you are right but I think I know what it feels like to be called a "deviant" or "not normal". Maybe I just lack empathy. The thing is I don't understand why it's so important for you for example to be called "normal".
I'll give you a comparison.

I'm the only buddhist in my family and circle of friends. Some accept that, others tell me they think I'm not normal. However I don't have a problem with those who call me weird or a hippie because I meditate. I just don't expect them to consider any of my behaviour to be "normal".


Because more often that not using the phrase "not normal" in relation to homosexuality is often the springboard for launching into anti-gay rhetoric. Its too closely bound up with negative connotations.

There is a world of difference between being the only Buddhist in your family compared to being the only homosexual in a family/society. BTW it is normal for humans to engage in spiritual practices ;)



I understand that and that's why I usually refrain from saying anything, because I don't want to create negative emotional responses.


Personally I'm not offended, but I'm trying to make you aware of how your speech can be interpreted by other people. Most homosexual's wont react positively to being labelled "not normal" due to the way the term has been used in the past.

It would be considered more polite to use the term minority instead of "not normal".
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby SamKR » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:59 pm

"Sexual Minority" sounds much better than "deviant" or "not normal".

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Ben » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:29 pm

Homosexuality is very normal.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby acinteyyo » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:58 pm

clw_uk wrote:acinteyyo -


This is all nice and interesting to some extent, but bonobos aren't humans and that they are closely related to humans proves nothing. Pigs are also closely related to humans, that doesn't mean that the behaviour of pigs is comparable to humans.


Your missing my point, which was that what is "normal" is relative. In terms of nature as a whole, homosexuality is quite normal.


I'm not, you are right but I think I know what it feels like to be called a "deviant" or "not normal". Maybe I just lack empathy. The thing is I don't understand why it's so important for you for example to be called "normal".
I'll give you a comparison.

I'm the only buddhist in my family and circle of friends. Some accept that, others tell me they think I'm not normal. However I don't have a problem with those who call me weird or a hippie because I meditate. I just don't expect them to consider any of my behaviour to be "normal".


Because more often that not using the phrase "not normal" in relation to homosexuality is often the springboard for launching into anti-gay rhetoric. Its too closely bound up with negative connotations.

There is a world of difference between being the only Buddhist in your family compared to being the only homosexual in a family/society. BTW it is normal for humans to engage in spiritual practices ;)



I understand that and that's why I usually refrain from saying anything, because I don't want to create negative emotional responses.


Personally I'm not offended, but I'm trying to make you aware of how your speech can be interpreted by other people. Most homosexual's wont react positively to being labelled "not normal" due to the way the term has been used in the past.

It would be considered more polite to use the term minority instead of "not normal".

Points taken :anjali:
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby chownah » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:50 pm

Bundokji wrote:
chownah wrote:Haven't read most of this thread but one factor which some mentioned as a detractor to same sex sex is that it goes against social norms. I think these people should take a look at the fact that same sex marriage is now legal everywhere in the USA so it seems that same sex sex has been officially sanctioned. I guess then that social norms can not be used as a detractor for same sex sex in the USA.
chownah


Social norms and civil law are two different things. For example, in Saudia Arabia there is no civil law that ban women from driving, but its socially unacceptable.

However, law makers can accelerate social change. Once again, back in the sixties, the religious community in Saudia Arabia was against female education, and when the king at that time (king Faisal) wanted to establish a school for Females, most of the conservatives protested, but he insisted that its not compulsory and if they don't want to educate their daughters no one would force them to do so. Nowadays female education is the norm in Saudia Arabia.

Peace :namaste:

So I guess it depends on what social group you are running around with....if it is all same sex people then it is the social norm.....also, laws are part of the social norm usually.
chownah


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