Wat Dhammakaya

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:33 am

"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:35 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
slimdabuddhist wrote:I'd like a non wpd follower to clarify please.
It is the duty of monks to wash their own robes, clean their own dwellings, and sweep their own monastery compounds, but lay people can also make merit by volunteering to do it. Wealthy supporters could also employ someone to do it, or anagarikas, novices, or students living in the temple could do it as part of their own duties.

Of course, a monk could exploit workers, voluntary or paid, if he was wicked by nature. There again, hired workers could exploit the monks and lay supporters by not doing their duties properly.

The monks live upstairs at Azusa and clean it themselves. the rest of the temple others do.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:15 am

jameswang wrote: That wouldn't make sense. As I understand, in Thailand, bad monks aren't forced to disrobe. They are just disrobed, wherever he is. And didn't the king just did that?.

I do apologize if some1 already answered this. i havent read everything and dont plan to right now. i skimmed and saw this so id like to answer. Monks can indeed be defrocked anywhere (in absentia), but only by the sangha council. However Thailand has a loophole in the legal code where monks cant be jailed. so if the police need to detain a monk, he must first disrobe. That is what hte Junta has been trying to do. use that law to disrobe him. The Sangha council could indeed disrobe him anywhere if they saw a legitimate reason. which they havent. Also, DSI keeps claiming he needs to be present for the case to continue. thats false, he can also be tried in absentia if the Junta has enuff evidence. but they wont do that. they insist he needs to be arrested (and defrocked) first for the case to continue.


Also, i take back my question to slim regarding the luang pu room. Based on ur reply about the Azusa abbots you clearly havent been there in a few years and i can gauge approx timeframe you left. so no need to answer that question since i know you wouldnt know. its only been a few months since the changes to that hallway outside of the luang pu room were made. BTW while you were gone several kids camp rooms were turned into storage rooms.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:06 am

exonesion wrote: I’m not sure about Wat Phra Dhammakaya in Thailand, but from what I can remember, there’re minimal donation amounts for certain projects as well. TRobinson, am I correct?
Yes that is correct. minimum amount for certain things. Should note that many temples in thailand do this however. and if you dont have enuff and still want to do a certain one you can pool. Idk if other temples allow pooling but i know its common practice for other temples to have minimums for certain things.


Also. i remember thaksin being brought up when i skimmed thru. im not gonna sit here and find the quote or ill never finish doing my family's taxes. but im sure any1 reading will know what im responding too. Thaksin did indeed attend dhammakaya on several occasions. much more than the one time Ashin Wirathu visited on Magha Puja day along with a bunch of other burmese monks. Yingluck, the elected PM the current Dictator overthrew, has also made some visits.

I think what Prof. Taylor was getting at was that is Dhammakaya is seen as supporting thaksin, which is not something we do. Again we have prominent supporters of Thaksin and of his opposition Abhisit at the temple. as is normal in any organization. but theres this idea among yellow shirts that the reason they lose every single election is because Dk tells its massive number of followers to vote red, which is false and unlikely given the geography of the last election (area near WPD was yellow, northeast thailand, far from WPD, was red). Either way the point is WPD is seen by the public as being associated with thaksin because of he would attend our events and the tabloid thai media saying so, and that provides one reason the dictator wants to get rid of us so badly. that on top of the other things Prof. Taylor mentioned. Personally, i think its more about control and crushing potential dissent than any kind of red-yellow politics. Its true for any authoritarian regime. China started persecuting Falun gong after they held a large rally.

Last point b4 i sign off, idk if i covered everything i just skimmed and picked out some topics. again idk about any ties between Ashin wirathu and WPD. all i know is he attended an event once. one source put earlier was that WPD supports burmese monks, which is true. we also support monks in nepal and bangladesh and around the world. but not all burmese monks are part of ashins extremists. thats all i know about it, any ties i could find have been pretty inconclusive. given how much the thai media ties us to Thaksin and, even more comically, the Nazis, i think theres seemingly a vague link between WPD and ashin wirathu in the news because thats what the media likes to report.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:18 am

exonesion wrote:Hence, it’s not that I’m pretending to be unintelligent, James. It’s just that there’s a huge gap in logic that I couldn’t understand.
Indeed. I realise that I'm wasting my time here.... I've unsubscribed from this thread. (I suppose that's a purpose of you guys being here.) Have fun!

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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:44 am

jameswang wrote: Indeed. I realise that I'm wasting my time here.... I've unsubscribed from this thread. (I suppose that's a purpose of you guys being here.) Have fun!
I'm here to provide the other side of the issue and my opinions for WPD because the arguments here were too one-sided.

And I haven't been wasting my time because I learned more about WPD. :tongue:

Warmest regards
Exonesion :anjali:
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152

slimdabuddhist
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by slimdabuddhist » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:26 am

I agree with james all these wpd followers do is deflect and deny that their leader is flawless and perfect. Arguing with cultist is like touching a stove twice. Done posting on this thread
Will still look at it, but no more posting.

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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:33 am

slimdabuddhist wrote:I agree with james all these wpd followers do is deflect and deny that their leader is flawless and perfect. Arguing with cultist is like touching a stove twice. Done posting on this thread
Will still look at it, but no more posting.
This is a strawman - nowhere in my replies did I say that WPD's abbot is perfect.


And that's because I've put across some points such as:


1. News alleging that the abbot's claim of a man being reborn in heaven is fake.
But no incriminating evidence yet.

2. The current abbot of Wat Paknam's issue with the vintage Mercedez Benz.
I wonder why he didn't give it away. (I didn't do my research for this one)

3. Why, many years ago, did the WPD's abbot held land in his name?
Why didn't he transfer it to the temple?



I do have my doubts, so I'm here to discuss the "correctness" of certain practices of the temple.

I respect your opinion (that the temple is a cult), but I would like to know why.
The same goes for Jameswang. He said there's another rule about not claiming to have super powers. And I asked if he could clarify which rule. But since I couldn't find it, and he didn't reply me, I suspect there's no such rule at all.

Feel free to come back when you've any claims supported by strong evidence. We will appreciate it.

Warmest regards,
Exonesion :anjali:
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:18 am

exonesion wrote:He said there's another rule about not claiming to have super powers. And I asked if he could clarify which rule. But since I couldn't find it, and he didn't reply me, I suspect there's no such rule at all.
You obviously did not try very hard to find it. It is in the Pātimokkha rules, Pācittiya 8.

Buddhist Sacred Texts
8. Whatsoever Bhikkhu shall tell one not received into the higher grade (of the Order) that the (speaker or any other Bhikkhu) has extraordinary spiritual gifts, even when such, is the case--that is a Pācittiya.
i.e. There is no offence in telling another fully ordained bhikkhu, but there is in telling a novice or lay person.
AIM ForumsPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:34 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:You obviously did not try very hard to find it. It is in the Pātimokkha rules, Pācittiya 8.
Buddhist Sacred Texts
8. Whatsoever Bhikkhu shall tell one not received into the higher grade (of the Order) that the (speaker or any other Bhikkhu) has extraordinary spiritual gifts, even when such, is the case--that is a Pācittiya.
i.e. There is no offence in telling another fully ordained bhikkhu, but there is in telling a novice or lay person.
Thank you venerable for pointing out what the "other rule" Jameswang mentioned. :anjali:
And I admit I didn't do my homework about the Patimokkha. This shows Jameswang knew more about the rules than me, haha :jumping:


But the point of contention is whether the abbot's "case studies" constitute a breach of either:

1. Parajika 4 (For allegedly "lying" about his meditative attainments)
2. Pācittiya 8 (For allegedly "talking" about his meditative attainments to novices and lay people)

And this is important because DSI, and the now DSI-chaired National Office of Buddhism (NOB) director wish to have WPD's abbot defrocked.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general ... dhammajayo

As I've expressed in a previous post, how do we know if the abbot is lying about his meditative attainments?
But what is more interesting to note, is that the abbot didn't explicitly say that he used his meditative attainments to see people's past or their future. It was implied. So if the abbot didn't explicitly mention about his meditative attainments, how can he lie?

And because it was implied, does it violate Pacittiya 8? That's because he didn't "report, or talk, or share" about his meditative attainments, only implied it. I'm interested in people's views over this, especially venerables who are well-versed in the Patimokkha. :anjali:
I believe the issue will be deliberated over by the Sangha Council and an appropriate measure will be given



But to be very strict, it's best for a monk not to disclose or even hint that he has any meditative attainments - to prevent any doubt that one broke the precept. Regardless of this, I find the case studies amusing. Logically and karmically speaking, the case studies don't seem too out of place, and there's nothing that raises any red flags or abnormalities. And I believe the case studies achieve its intended effect, to share about the Law of Karma to those who listen and convince them to (1) Avoid evil, (2) Do good, and (3) Purify their mind.

Case studies ---> Intended effect
Rebirth in hell for drinking? ----> Don't drink
Rebirth in heaven because of practicing generosity? ----> Practice generosity
Rebirth in heaven because of habitual meditation? ----> Meditate more

If the case studies are real, then the biggest problem would be a breach of Pacittiya 8.
But if it's false, then it entails expulsion.

But either way, many devotees changed their behavior for the better, not worse.
And in light of this, is WPD still a cult?


Warmest regards,
Exonesion :anjali:
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152

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SDC
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by SDC » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:28 pm

exonesion wrote:As I've expressed in a previous post, how do we know if the abbot is lying about his meditative attainments?
Such a thing cannot be verified externally which is the catch-22 that a wise bhikkhu would very clearly understand and therefore not say anything in the first place. Meaning he wouldn't even beg the question or invite the attention to such a matter because it would just confuse people. This monk probably intended to stoke faith and/or praise, but the uncertainty that is overshadowing both is clearly doing the most damage.

slimdabuddhist
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by slimdabuddhist » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:58 pm

Even if I were to post solid evidence or articles you'd say it's either false or the media is trying to damage your reputation. So like I said again, no point in putting my hand in stove again. And no post and any other media outlet that disagree with wpd is out to get you guys. :clap: and dhammakayauncovered is not biased at all, right? :rolleye:

here's an article to make u happy I got it from another thread prob was posted here or brought up
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/op ... t/30307533
Neither do true religious leaders use politics as an excuse to hide behind. In fact, they must stay away from politics at all costs.
Lord Buddha founded and fostered Buddhism at a time when Northern India knew nothing of
democracy and was ruled by absolute monarchies. Most importantly, perhaps, credible religious leaders don’t portray themselves as victims, are forgiving and encourage their followers to do the same.
That is what distinguishes spiritual leaders from their political counterparts. Buddhism in particular teaches that once we consider ourselves a victim – as being persecuted for whatever reason – the “ego” immediately comes into play, which leads to all kinds of problems. The temptations of self-pity, fear and anger arise, all of them the biggest enemies of Buddhism.
Yall claim to be tryna to stay outta politics but wpd are the biggest hypocrites ever on politics. Why have a tv channel that is 24/7 seems strange that other buddhist sects don't have one? Yall have news to pat yourselves on the back at the end of the day. It's okay if a government is supporting you but when your leader is accused of a crime and fail to actually prove himself innocent yall play the victim card.

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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:43 pm

SDC wrote:
exonesion wrote:As I've expressed in a previous post, how do we know if the abbot is lying about his meditative attainments?
Such a thing cannot be verified externally which is the catch-22 that a wise bhikkhu would very clearly understand and therefore not say anything in the first place. Meaning he wouldn't even beg the question or invite the attention to such a matter because it would just confuse people. This monk probably intended to stoke faith and/or praise, but the uncertainty that is overshadowing both is clearly doing the most damage.
:goodpost: I agree.

slimdabuddhist wrote: if I were to post solid evidence or articles you'd say it's either false or the media is trying to damage your reputation. Apparently bangkokpost and any other media outlet that disagree with wpd is out to get you guys. and dhammakayauncovered is not biased at all, right?
You misunderstand me.
Nowhere did I say that Dhammakayauncovered is unbiased, because it is not. And so is Bangkokpost.
The difference between these two websites, I believe, is the quality of evidence they proffer.

On the one hand, WPD and Dhammakayauncovered has all the information it needs, so it is in the position to report facts.
(Some may prefer to assume that the temple is "evil" by nature and is out to "brainwash" people)
This is an opinion that I cannot argue. But since it is baseless speculation, this is an opinion that cannot be taken as fact.
I have advanced arguments in my earlier posts about the Dhamma teachings that WPD teach. But they still stand uncontested.

So instead of addressing them, you've resorted to saying WPD followers are "cultists". Again, this is an opinion I cannot argue.
But you could have argued that we are cultists by finding sources (From WPD's official website) that suggest WPD "twists" the Buddha's teachings.

On the other hand, Bangkokpost reports about WPD from afar and based them from hearsay.
(How would the news editors or news reporters know what's really happening in the temple if they didn't attend the temple regularly and interact with the monks?)

And on the contrary, sometimes, although extremely rare, Bangkokpost reports on something which I think is true and important. And one of that was why the abbot held on to a land deed, but that was many years ago. So, slim, I do read the Bangkokpost, but a lot news they have to offer are just speculation.


May you be happy :smile:

Warmest regards
Exonesion :anjali:
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152

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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:34 am

slimdabuddhist wrote: Yall claim to be tryna to stay outta politics but wpd are the biggest hypocrites ever on politics.
WPD says it's apolitical. It's the sensationalist news media that struggles to show that WPD is political (yellow or red).
I mentioned earlier that the news media says that WPD is political just because Thaksin is seen in the ceremony.
Again, I'll ask the same question as before:
If a famous murderer is seen in one of WPD's ceremony, does this mean that WPD is supporting the murderer?

Why have a tv channel that is 24/7 seems strange that other buddhist sects don't have one?
DMC TV, is, or was, a 24/7 channel that caters to devotees around the world, so they can watch the Dhamma programs on regardless of the time.
(I don't like the lame cartoons though, cause they're more for kids).
But even if other Buddhist organizations don't have one, why does it seem strange to you? Could you explain?


It's okay if a government is supporting you but when your leader is accused of a crime and fail to actually prove himself innocent yall play the victim card.
What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Warmest regards
Exonesion
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152

chownah
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by chownah » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:25 pm

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Thailand?....military junta running the country? Even when a popular democratically elected gov't is in charge this is somewhat of a joke. In thailand if you are in the way and don't get out of the way then you are guilty and proof is sort of a secondary sort of circus act sometimes....not always though.
chownah

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