Theravada growing in India

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Manopubbangama
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Theravada growing in India

Post by Manopubbangama »

Indians are converting to [Buddhism]:

https://religionnews.com/2018/05/03/hin ... er-castes/


Sadhu!

This really should be encouraged.

On a side note, many Indians are converting to Christianity, as well: http://www.bpnews.net/46047/christianit ... -hostility


It would be interesting if India became a Buddhist and/or Christian nation.

If we have any converts from Hinduism here on this board it would be great to hear your story and if you faced any persecution for your choices.

It would be good if we could get some Sri Lankans or maybe Burmese monks to help establish the faith to a greater degree in India.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Theravada growing in India

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Hello India,
Let me thank you for giving us the Buddha.

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Manopubbangama
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Re: Theravada growing in India

Post by Manopubbangama »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:43 pm Hello India,
Let me thank you for giving us the Buddha.

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_
I think you meant to say......"NEPAL." :quote:

It was India where the Buddha went to refute the caste system and its top class, the class that still runs it today, after Buddhism was violently eradicated.

Just sayin....
dharmacorps
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Re: Theravada growing in India

Post by dharmacorps »

Although there is some evidence that Buddhists were the subject of violence, the reasons for the decline of Buddhism in India are usually described by most academics as varied, complex, and in many instances unclear. Most seem to believe that the mixing of Buddhism with Hindu practices, and the perception that the Buddha was a avatar of Vishnu, made it easier to have "one stop religion" by just practicing a version of Hinduism and getting with the larger religious group. In this case, the inclusiveness of polytheism is a major asset to its' survival and subsuming of smaller religions. Violence wasn't necessary, really.
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Manopubbangama
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Re: Theravada growing in India

Post by Manopubbangama »

dharmacorps wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:27 pm Although there is some evidence that Buddhists were the subject of violence, the reasons for the decline of Buddhism in India are usually described by most academics as varied, complex, and in many instances unclear. Most seem to believe that the mixing of Buddhism with Hindu practices, and the perception that the Buddha was a avatar of Vishnu, made it easier to have "one stop religion" by just practicing a version of Hinduism and getting with the larger religious group. In this case, the inclusiveness of polytheism is a major asset to its' survival and subsuming of smaller religions. Violence wasn't necessary, really.
This thread is about Theravada GROWING in India.
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DooDoot
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Re: Theravada growing in India

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Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:37 pmThis thread is about Theravada GROWING in India.
Similar to in the West, it appears to be the hijacking of Buddhism by Socialists & Marxists. I think the suttas will show Buddhism was not exactly for the lower classes who, due to their lack of luxuries, did not develop disenchantment towards sensuality & materialism.
Monks, I lived in refinement, utmost refinement, total refinement. My father even had lotus ponds made in our palace: one where red-lotuses bloomed, one where white lotuses bloomed, one where blue lotuses bloomed, all for my sake. I used no sandalwood that was not from Varanasi. My turban was from Varanasi, as were my tunic, my lower garments, & my outer cloak. A white sunshade was held over me day & night to protect me from cold, heat, dust, dirt, & dew.

I had three palaces: one for the cold season, one for the hot season, one for the rainy season. During the four months of the rainy season I was entertained in the rainy-season palace by minstrels without a single man among them, and I did not once come down from the palace. Whereas the servants, workers, & retainers in other people's homes are fed meals of lentil soup & broken rice, in my father's home the servants, workers, & retainers were fed wheat, rice, and meat.

Even though I was endowed with such fortune, such total refinement, the thought occurred to me: 'When an untaught, run-of-the-mill person, himself subject to aging, not beyond aging, sees another who is aged, he is horrified, humiliated, & disgusted, oblivious to himself that he too is subject to aging, not beyond aging. If I — who am subject to aging, not beyond aging — were to be horrified, humiliated, & disgusted on seeing another person who is aged, that would not be fitting for me.' As I noticed this, the [typical] young person's intoxication with youth entirely dropped away.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
According to the traditional three-life-time interpretation of Dependent Origination (as espoused by Bhikkhu Bodhi) and to the very popular Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta, it appears these lower class people are reborn into poverty due to their past life kamma:
There is the case where a woman or man is not a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, or lighting to brahmans or contemplatives. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, he/she is poor wherever reborn. This is the way leading to poverty: not to be a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, or lighting to brahmans or contemplatives.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I find it sort of ironic how charity activists, such as Bhikkhu Bodhi, work to give charity to people who in past lives were not generous. I wonder if Bhikkhu Bodhi's charity organisation instructs these poor people to give what they are given to charity; similar to how the US Congress provides foreign aid to certain nations who then return some of that foreign aid to the Congressmen as kickbacks or bribes. Interesting stuff.

This reminds me of the Nation of Islam in the USA, were Black Americans chose Islam as a religion to serve their social activism because Islam was distinct from the Christianity that enslaved them. However, these days, I often find Louis Farrakhan giving Christian sermons.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Theravada growing in India

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:26 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:43 pm Hello India,
Let me thank you for giving us the Buddha.

_/\_ _/\_ _/\_
I think you meant to say......"NEPAL." :quote:

It was India where the Buddha went to refute the caste system and its top class, the class that still runs it today, after Buddhism was violently eradicated.

Just sayin....
Oops! Yes, yes. My apology for making some confusion because of my short thank saying.

We all know that birthplace of Buddha is Lumbini, Nepal; and, I always thank Nepal for that.

However, when I came across this thread about India, I felt thankful for its roles in Buddha's Sāsana in the early days.

One of these role was contributing a physical place "underneath the Bodhi tree" to "give us the Buddha".

Prior to arriving this place, he was not a "Buddha - Sammasambuddha" yet.

So, IMHO, I can rightly say that "India gave us the Buddha" by providing a place underneath the great Bodhi tree in Bodh Gaya, Gaya district, Indian state of Bihar.

To clarify my points (just in the contexts of this thread), I would say:

- Prince Siddhartha was physically born in Nepal
- Sammasambuddha was "mentally born" in India

Metta,

ps: Ven. Mogok Sayadaw once said "the actual site where Buddha got enlightened was between vedana and tanha (not under the bodhi tree)"
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
SarathW
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Re: Theravada growing in India

Post by SarathW »

I find it sort of ironic how charity activists, such as Bhikkhu Bodhi, work to give charity to people who in past lives were not generous.
I was disappointed to see the above statement from you DD as I consider you as a person with an advance knowledge in Buddhism.
This statement is very un Buddhist.
I wonder if Bhikkhu Bodhi's charity organisation instructs these poor people to give what they are given to charity
I think this statement also unfair unless you can substantiate it.
how the US Congress provides foreign aid to certain nations who then return some of that foreign aid to the Congressmen as kickbacks or bribes. Interesting stuff.
I can't recall any reports on this but I do not surprise how corrupt the politicians.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Theravada growing in India

Post by DooDoot »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:55 am To clarify my points (just in the contexts of this thread), I would say:

- Prince Siddhartha was physically born in Nepal
- Sammasambuddha was "mentally born" in India
Interesting point. When the suttas refer to the "arising" or "manifestation" ("appearance") of the Tathagata, the suttas appear to be referring to something mental.
One person, mendicants, arises (uppajjamāno uppajjati) in the world for the welfare and happiness of the people, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, welfare, and happiness of gods and humans. What one person? The Realized One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha.

The appearance (pātubhāvo) of one person, mendicants, is rare in the world. What one person? The Realized One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha.


https://suttacentral.net/an1.170-187/en/sujato
:candle:
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:01 amI was disappointed .. This statement is very un Buddhist... I think this statement also unfair unless you can substantiate it.
Thank you SarathW. I am sorry to disappoint you but I find your statement unfair. My statements were critical academic questions about the doctrine. Further, I was not making any allegations against Bhikkhu Bodhi but was merely asking a question about how Bhikkhu Bodhi reconciles his doctrinal beliefs with his charity work. I was merely pointing out some ironic or strange things about certain doctrines found in Buddhism. MN 135 says the poor are poor due to not giving in the past. Therefore, when charity is given to the poor in India, how do they became rich in the future, apart from giving what they have been given to monks & priests? While it is easy for the rich to reborn again rich by giving charity; how are the poor to be reborn rich when they have very little to give? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: Theravada growing in India

Post by SarathW »

Hi DD
Buddha asked us to practice Brhamavihara.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Theravada growing in India

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:30 amBuddha asked us to practice Brhamavihara.
Thanks SarathW but the above is unrelated to anything that I wrote. The topic is about the poor who live in poverty in India. MN 135 says a person is reborn rich by practising generosity. My questions are about how do the poor become rich. Where as your exhortation about Brhamavihara seems to not be about how to bring the poor out of poverty but about how you, personally, can be reborn in heaven.

I posted the Indian Buddhism movements has similarities to Marxism & Socialism. It seems to be a movement with a focus on economic betterment for a certain class of people. I then asked how does Buddhism offer a solution to this economic problem. Yet, all I could find in the suttas was giving to monks & priests is now to avoid being reborn into poverty.
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:50 am People are looking ways to eliminate their suffering.
Becoming a Buddhist or communist even a capitalist.
So it is nothing wrong about it.
People are looking for ways to eliminate their social hindrances & economic poverty.

:focus:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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SarathW
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Re: Theravada growing in India

Post by SarathW »

I posted the Indian Buddhism movements has similarities to Marxism & Socialism
People are looking ways to eliminate their suffering.
Becoming a Buddhist or communist even a capitalist.
So it is nothing wrong about it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Theravada growing in India

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:26 pmIt was India where the Buddha went to refute the caste system and its top class, the class that still runs it today, after Buddhism was violently eradicated. Just sayin....
Are there any Pali suttas that show the Buddha went to refute the caste system? My impression of the suttas is the Buddha only refuted the idea of "caste via physical birth" and supported the idea of "caste via kamma/deeds" (MN 93; MN 98; MN 135; etc). MN 95 says the Buddha wished no harm to the lineage of Brahmins.
He teaches the efficacy of deeds and action. He doesn’t wish any harm upon the community of brahmins. …

Samaṇo khalu, bho, gotamo kammavādī kiriyavādī apāpapurekkhāro brahmaññāya pajāya … pe

https://suttacentral.net/mn95/en/sujato
For name and clan are assigned
as mere convention in the world.
Arising by mutual agreement,
they’re assigned to each individual.

For a long time this misconception
has prejudiced those who don’t understand.
Ignorant, they declare
that one is a brahmin by birth.

You’re not a brahmin by birth,
nor by birth a non-brahmin.
You’re a brahmin by your deeds,
and by deeds a non-brahmin.

You’re a farmer by your deeds,
by deeds you’re a professional;
you’re a trader by your deeds,
by deeds are you an employee;

you’re a bandit by your deeds,
by deeds you’re a soldier;
you’re a sacrificer by your deeds,
by deeds you’re a ruler.

In this way in accord with truth,
the astute regard deeds.
Seeing dependent origination,
they’re expert in deeds and their results.

Deeds make the world go on,
deeds make people go on;
sentient beings are bound by deeds,
like a moving chariot’s linchpin.

By austerity and spiritual practice,
by restraint and by taming:
that’s how to become a brahmin,
this is the supreme brahmin.

https://suttacentral.net/mn98/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: Theravada growing in India

Post by SarathW »

It was the Buddha who first attempted to abolish slavery and vehemently protested against the degrading caste system which was firmly rooted in the soil of India. In the Word of the Buddha it is not by mere birth one becomes an outcast or a noble, but by one's actions. Caste or color does not preclude one from becoming a Buddhist or from entering the Order. Fishermen, scavengers, courtesans, together with warriors and Brahmans, were freely admitted to the Order and enjoyed equal privileges and were also given positions of rank. Upali, the barber, for instance, was made in preference to all other the chief in matters pertaining to Vinaya discipline. The timid Sunita, the scavenger, who attained Arhatship was admitted by the Buddha Himself into the Order. Angulimala, the robber and criminal, was converted to a compassionate saint. The fierce Alavaka sought refuge in the Buddha and became a saint. The courtesan Ambapali entered the Order and attained Arhatship. Such instances could easily be multiplied from the Tipitaka to show that the portals of Buddhism were wide open to all, irrespective of caste, color or rank.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... shell.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Theravada growing in India

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SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:19 amIt was the Buddha who first attempted to abolish slavery and vehemently protested against the degrading caste system which was firmly rooted in the soil of India....
Interesting ideas but do the suttas support this? The suttas below appear to show the Buddha refer to slaves (dasa; dasi).
Bhikkhus, when a good person is born in a family, it is for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people. It is for the good, welfare, and happiness of (1) his mother and father, (2) his wife and children, (3) his slaves, workers, and servants, (4) his friends and companions, (5) his departed ancestors, (6) the king, (7) the deities, and (8) ascetics and brahmins. Just as a great rain cloud, nurturing all the crops, appears for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people, so too, when a good person is born in a family, it is for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people. It is for the good, welfare, and happiness of his mother and father … … ascetics and brahmins.

https://suttacentral.net/an8.38/en/bodhi

Sujātā, these are the seven kinds of wife that a man can have.
Imā kho, sujāte, satta purisassa bhariyāyo.

Which one of these are you?”
Tāsaṃ tvaṃ katamā”ti?

“Sir, from this day forth may the Buddha remember me as a wife like a bondservant.”
“Ajjatagge maṃ, bhante, bhagavā dāsīsamaṃ sāmikassa bhariyaṃ dhāretū”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an7.63/en/sujato

Bondservants and workers served by a master in these five ways show compassion to them in five ways.

Imehi kho, gahapatiputta, pañcahi ṭhānehi ayyirakena heṭṭhimā disā dāsakammakarā paccupaṭṭhitā pañcahi ṭhānehi ayyirakaṃ anukampanti—

https://suttacentral.net/dn31/en/sujato

PTS Pali English Dictionary
dāsī
feminine
a female servant, a handmaiden a slave-girl
:candle:
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:19 am Caste or color does not preclude one from becoming a Buddhist or from entering the Order. Fishermen, scavengers, courtesans, together with warriors and Brahmans, were freely admitted to the Order and enjoyed equal privileges and were also given positions of rank.
The above appears true however it only appears to apply to the Buddhist Sangha rather than to the whole of Indian society.

Just as, when the great rivers … reach the great ocean, they give up their former names and designations and are simply called the great ocean, so too, when members of the four social classes—khattiyas, brahmins, vessas, and suddas—go forth from the household life into homelessness in the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathāgata, they give up their former names and clans and are simply called ascetics following the Sakyan son. This is the fourth astounding and amazing quality that the bhikkhus see in this Dhamma and discipline….

https://suttacentral.net/an8.19/en/bodhi
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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