SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Organisational work, teaching, Sunday school syllabus, charitable work, outreach, sharing of resources, artwork, etc.
User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1665
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by pilgrim »

thepea wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 9:31 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 9:15 pm

Who are "you Buddhists"? We've both attended Goenka's Vipassana retreats, and both on a website that is avowedly for Buddhist topics. Whence the label?
“You buddhists” are the ones who need to have everything in the CORRECT box. It is clear from mr Goenka and stated many times that he is not teaching Buddhism. But Buddhist mistakenly wish to lump this teaching into theravaden Buddhism. Because there are “some similarities” there are an incredible number of subtle differences which seperates this organization from theravaden Buddhism.
It would make more sense and be more accurate to create another dhamma wheel for this organization separately rather than trying to force it in with theravaden Buddhism.
There is a huge difference between the vihara I would attend and the Goenka Courses people attend.
The walking like a duck and quacking like a duck must be a duck is an incredibly ignorant and disrespectful view.
At every Goenka retreat, participants take the 3 Refuges, reciting Buddham, Dhammam Sangham saranam gacchami three times. In the Mahanama sutta, AN 8.25, the Buddha says " inasmuch as one has gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, has gone to the Sangha for refuge; in that way, Mahanama, one is a lay follower (upasaka/upasika)."

Ethnic languages like Thai still use this term - Upasaka. But in modern convention lay followers of the Buddha are called Buddhists by English speakers. One can say, that after the retreat ends, one is no longer a Buddhist. That may be true, but for those who consider themselves to be continuing the practice after the formal 10 day retreat, even if they think Buddhists refer to the others, they continue to be Buddhists themselves.

Goenka divorces his teachings from the ritualistic Buddhism that is common. I think that is very skillful of him. But Buddhism is a very wide term and ritualistic Buddhism, while it may be the most common, it is not the only kind of Buddhism.

thepea
Posts: 1598
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by thepea »

pilgrim wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:42 am
At every Goenka retreat, participants take the 3 Refuges, reciting Buddham, Dhammam Sangham saranam gacchami three times. In the Mahanama sutta, AN 8.25, the Buddha says " inasmuch as one has gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, has gone to the Sangha for refuge; in that way, Mahanama, one is a lay follower (upasaka/upasika)."

Ethnic languages like Thai still use this term - Upasaka. But in modern convention lay followers of the Buddha are called Buddhists by English speakers. One can say, that after the retreat ends, one is no longer a Buddhist. That may be true, but for those who consider themselves to be continuing the practice after the formal 10 day retreat, even if they think Buddhists refer to the others, they continue to be Buddhists themselves.

Goenka divorces his teachings from the ritualistic Buddhism that is common. I think that is very skillful of him. But Buddhism is a very wide term and ritualistic Buddhism, while it may be the most common, it is not the only kind of Buddhism.
Again, “you Buddhists” want to put everything in s box and label it Buddhism.
Goenka does not teach Buddhism nor did the buddha.
They teach the dhamma and this is completely different to Buddhism.
I’m not even sure what a Buddhist consists of?

User avatar
Dan74-MkII
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 am

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Dan74-MkII »

What pilgrim says above sounds very reasonable to me. "You Buddhists" or "you non-Buddhists" are complimentary boxes, both of which are occasionally useful but more often abused, IMO.

Thankfully Buddhism and even Theravada Buddhism is a very broad church. Some folks seem to pretend that Theravada is simply a continuation of the Buddha's dispensation, but it is much more than that. The last 100 years or so have seen a wonderful burst of activity in Theravada, with inspiring teachers sharing the Dhamma in heart-felt idiosynchratic and profound ways. To me it seems almost inevitable that when one truly processes and lives the Dhamma, it will express itself in a unique way rather than some sort of a facsimile of the Suttas. Not at odds with the Suttas, but a living unique expression of the truths and the pointers and the skillful means they contain.

So SN Goenka expressed the Dhamma is his unique way that has brought it to the thousands in the 10-day retreats, prison programs and other outreach. There may well be room for criticism, but overwhelmingly, I would say Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! :bow: :bow: :bow:

User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1665
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by pilgrim »

Vipassana in Mongolian prisons - a 2018 documentary with English subtitles.

User avatar
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:06 pm

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

.


This writing somehow pleasantly reminds me of Goenkaji, Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire. :bow:
The Buddha, however, taught the tathAgatagarbha teaching for a purpose. He did not intend it to be taken in its prima-facie form as it stands (teaching some sort of intrinsically existent immutable ultimate reality, or True Self, for example) as a literally true doctrine. Rather, through his compassion, he intended it as a means to introduce non-Buddhists to Buddhism. Paul Williams
:heart:
.


🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐

Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 4449
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: I’m not even sure what a Buddhist consists of?
Buddhist = Learns from Buddha

thepea
Posts: 1598
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by thepea »

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:22 pm
thepea wrote: I’m not even sure what a Buddhist consists of?
Buddhist = Learns from Buddha
“Buddhist” indicates religion or a faith or belief structure.
Goenka divorces himself from this as he teaches a practical technique which is the cure to suffering. Buddhism from what I’ve experienced is something completely different.
Buddha had no interest in Buddhism.
Buddha would also divorce from Buddhism.

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 5563
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Dhammanando »

thepea wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:41 pm
“Buddhist” indicates religion or a faith or belief structure.
“Buddhist” is just a modern term for what in the Buddha's day was called a “son (or daughter) of the Sakyan”.
thepea wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:41 pm
Buddha would also divorce from Buddhism.
The Buddha of your imagination might do so. But the Buddha of the Pali suttas was a teacher who described himself as a vibhajjavādin, “one who makes distinctions”, as opposed to an ekaṃsavādin, “one who makes blanket judgments about things”.

For example,
“Does Master Gotama praise sacrifice?”

“I do not praise all sacrifice, brahmin, nor do I withhold praise from all sacrifice. I do not praise a violent sacrifice at which cattle, goats, rams, chickens, and pigs are slain, at which various creatures are led to slaughter. For what reason? Because arahants and those who have entered the path to arahantship do not attend a violent sacrifice.

“But I praise a non-violent sacrifice at which cattle, goats, rams, chickens, and pigs are not slain, where various creatures are not slaughtered, that is, a regular giving, a sacrifice offered by family custom. For what reason? Because arahants and those who have entered the path to arahantship attend a non-violent sacrifice.”
(Ujjayasutta)
“The Blessed One, brahmin, did not praise every type of meditation, nor did he condemn every type of meditation.”
(Gopakamoggallānasutta)
Similarly, one may reasonably expect that if the Buddha of the Pali suttas were to encounter what nowadays goes by the name “Buddhism”, he would praise whatever in it merits praise and reject whatever in it merits rejection.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 4449
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: Goenka …

Buddhism from what I’ve experienced is something completely different.
If Buddhism is different, then Goenka has no value…

If Goenka is similar, then he is superfluous…
Last edited by cappuccino on Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 4449
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by cappuccino »

Remember…
the Buddha is called the rightly self-awakened one

:candle:

thepea
Posts: 1598
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by thepea »

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:49 pm
thepea wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:41 pm
“Buddhist” indicates religion or a faith or belief structure.
“Buddhist” is just a modern term for what in the Buddha's day was called a “son (or daughter) of the Sakyan”.
thepea wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:41 pm
Buddha would also divorce from Buddhism.
The Buddha of your imagination might do so. But the Buddha of the Pali suttas was a teacher who described himself as a vibhajjavādin, “one who makes distinctions”, as opposed to an ekaṃsavādin, “one who makes blanket judgments about things”.

For example,
“Does Master Gotama praise sacrifice?”

“I do not praise all sacrifice, brahmin, nor do I withhold praise from all sacrifice. I do not praise a violent sacrifice at which cattle, goats, rams, chickens, and pigs are slain, at which various creatures are led to slaughter. For what reason? Because arahants and those who have entered the path to arahantship do not attend a violent sacrifice.

“But I praise a non-violent sacrifice at which cattle, goats, rams, chickens, and pigs are not slain, where various creatures are not slaughtered, that is, a regular giving, a sacrifice offered by family custom. For what reason? Because arahants and those who have entered the path to arahantship attend a non-violent sacrifice.”
(Ujjayasutta)
“The Blessed One, brahmin, did not praise every type of meditation, nor did he condemn every type of meditation.”
(Gopakamoggallānasutta)
Similarly, one may reasonably expect that if the Buddha of the Pali suttas were to encounter what nowadays goes by the name “Buddhism”, he would praise whatever in it merits praise and reject whatever in it merits rejection.
You cannot quarantine Buddhism to Theravāda. Buddhism or Buddhist is a religious blanket term it must and does include all off shoots of Buddhism.
The essence of Buddha’s dhamma has been watered down and lost in in general. Confusion is probably 85% within this religion. It is why I find Buddhist or Buddhism non related to goenka Vipassana.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 4449
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: The essence of Buddha’s dhamma has been watered down and lost in in general. Confusion is probably 85% within this religion. It is why I find Buddhist or Buddhism non related to goenka Vipassana.
The teaching is perfect, as it is…

Confusion is perhaps your issue.

thepea
Posts: 1598
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by thepea »

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:21 am


The teaching is perfect, as it is…
Not a chance.
Very few places have the facilities required for laypersons to gain establishment in this practice.
This lacking is the responsibility for the decline of dhamma.
To much emphasis is placed on monastic support and merit making. Leads to confusion.
Monastics are kept like pets, there should be a push for them to be more independent.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 4449
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote:
cappuccino wrote:

The teaching is perfect, as it is…
Not a chance.
Very few places have the facilities required for laypersons
lay life has always been imperfect

thepea
Posts: 1598
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by thepea »

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:25 am
thepea wrote:
cappuccino wrote:

The teaching is perfect, as it is…
Not a chance.
Very few places have the facilities required for laypersons
lay life has always been imperfect
What are you talking about?

Post Reply