SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

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Saengnapha
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Saengnapha » Mon May 14, 2018 3:50 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 5:28 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 4:01 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 3:36 pm


I am indeed looking for clarifications. I've not offered any position on what I think regarding Goenka. I am merely questioning your prediction/hypothesis that you - and others who do not count themselves as Buddhists - will not be accepted by Buddhists. It seems an odd thing to say, so I am asking for the obvious clarification as to whether you mean all Buddhists, or some. I'd be more than happy to accept a clarification on that "all or some" issue, but you do seem very coy about a very simple question.
Again, I thought I clarified that but I guess I overestimated you. Not all buddhists, only some can accept. I'm not even sure some can accept non-Buddhists, although they say they do. So I will give the benefit of the doubt to them. It's kind of like nationalism, if you know what I mean. This is quite clear on the board in many threads. This is a by-product of the religious mind, which is conditioned. It's not hard to observe this. No insight is needed!
You certainly overestimate me if you think that the phrase
you can choose which choice you think I meant, all, or merely by some of them
clarifies anything for me. That looks like prevarication to an ordinary non mind-reading mortal such as myself!

You don't exactly come down unequivocally on one side or the other, but you now seem to be saying that some Buddhists don't accept you, or other non-Buddhists. You also say it's quite clear here on DW. Could you give examples? Have you ever been banned, or told that you are not welcome here? Of course, there are probably some Buddhists somewhere in the world who don't accept you, but where is that evidenced here on DW?
You love to hear yourself argue, Sam. It's kind of like an endless loop. I'm not interested in continuing this, if you don't mind.

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mikenz66
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by mikenz66 » Mon May 14, 2018 5:08 am

thepea wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:12 pm
As for how I see the situation it has changed, coming from a theravaden beginning and then finding Goenka vipassana I too after sitting my initial course felt that this was theravaden Buddhism. Visiting the vihara and sharing this teaching I realized this was not accepted there.
But the real change was when I brought some theravaden dhamma books to a Goenka retreat when I was doing service, I was distributing them to some students when the acharia teacher approached me and asked that I remove them from the centre as they were teaching something different to what they were teaching.
I now see that this is very different.
My impression is that the Goenka group is much more closed than other Buddha-Dhamma groups. Various monks, such as Bhikkhu Analayo, a Malaysian teacher whose name I forget right now, and one of my early teachers, have sat a number of U Ba Khin/Goenka retreats and were very happy to use aspects of that approach in their teaching. Bhikku Analayo's guided Satipatthana meditation here: http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/439/talk/26718/ makes heavy use of the body-scanning approach.

So, in my experience, it's the Goenka organisation that is very keen to dissociate itself from other Buddha-Dhamma groups, rather than the other way round. They seem to have an efficient organisation, so good luck to them.

:heart:
Mike

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Sam Vara
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 14, 2018 6:23 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:50 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 5:28 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 4:01 pm

Again, I thought I clarified that but I guess I overestimated you. Not all buddhists, only some can accept. I'm not even sure some can accept non-Buddhists, although they say they do. So I will give the benefit of the doubt to them. It's kind of like nationalism, if you know what I mean. This is quite clear on the board in many threads. This is a by-product of the religious mind, which is conditioned. It's not hard to observe this. No insight is needed!
You certainly overestimate me if you think that the phrase
you can choose which choice you think I meant, all, or merely by some of them
clarifies anything for me. That looks like prevarication to an ordinary non mind-reading mortal such as myself!

You don't exactly come down unequivocally on one side or the other, but you now seem to be saying that some Buddhists don't accept you, or other non-Buddhists. You also say it's quite clear here on DW. Could you give examples? Have you ever been banned, or told that you are not welcome here? Of course, there are probably some Buddhists somewhere in the world who don't accept you, but where is that evidenced here on DW?
You love to hear yourself argue, Sam. It's kind of like an endless loop. I'm not interested in continuing this, if you don't mind.
If you gave straight answers - in this case explaining the simple hypothesis or prediction that you will not be accepted by Buddhists - then I wouldn't bother. The alternative is to let statements that I consider to be wrong or misguided to stand unchallenged. If they were true, they could surely withstand a bit of mild questioning.

Saengnapha
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Saengnapha » Mon May 14, 2018 8:06 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:23 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:50 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 5:28 pm


You certainly overestimate me if you think that the phrase

clarifies anything for me. That looks like prevarication to an ordinary non mind-reading mortal such as myself!

You don't exactly come down unequivocally on one side or the other, but you now seem to be saying that some Buddhists don't accept you, or other non-Buddhists. You also say it's quite clear here on DW. Could you give examples? Have you ever been banned, or told that you are not welcome here? Of course, there are probably some Buddhists somewhere in the world who don't accept you, but where is that evidenced here on DW?
You love to hear yourself argue, Sam. It's kind of like an endless loop. I'm not interested in continuing this, if you don't mind.
If you gave straight answers - in this case explaining the simple hypothesis or prediction that you will not be accepted by Buddhists - then I wouldn't bother. The alternative is to let statements that I consider to be wrong or misguided to stand unchallenged. If they were true, they could surely withstand a bit of mild questioning.
I've always given straight answers. They don't seem to be the answers you are looking for. This is the only issue here, Sam. Why do you want to argue with everything I say? It's your nature, Sam. You enjoy this kind of dialogue. It's your entertainment. Like I said, I am not going to continue this so let's just end it, okay?

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Sam Vara
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 14, 2018 8:17 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:06 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:23 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:50 am

You love to hear yourself argue, Sam. It's kind of like an endless loop. I'm not interested in continuing this, if you don't mind.
If you gave straight answers - in this case explaining the simple hypothesis or prediction that you will not be accepted by Buddhists - then I wouldn't bother. The alternative is to let statements that I consider to be wrong or misguided to stand unchallenged. If they were true, they could surely withstand a bit of mild questioning.
I've always given straight answers. They don't seem to be the answers you are looking for. This is the only issue here, Sam. Why do you want to argue with everything I say? It's your nature, Sam. You enjoy this kind of dialogue. It's your entertainment. Like I said, I am not going to continue this so let's just end it, okay?
I don't think you have always given straight answers. Look above in this thread and see whether you could have answered more straightforwardly than asking an interlocutor to choose which possible interpretation they want. That looks like prevarication where a simple answer would suffice. I can give lots more example from other threads.

You seem to have taken refuge in ad hominem criticisms of me, rather than talking about the issues here. I disagree with those criticisms, as well as pointing out that they are generally unhelpful. I'm just trying to get to a substantial point here, and acquiescing with points with which I disagree might falsely imply that I agree with them.

Of course you can end this, and any other exchange. But if I see something that you post that I think merits a response, I might well respond.

thepea
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by thepea » Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:08 am
My impression is that the Goenka group is much more closed than other Buddha-Dhamma groups. Various monks, such as Bhikkhu Analayo, a Malaysian teacher whose name I forget right now, and one of my early teachers, have sat a number of U Ba Khin/Goenka retreats and were very happy to use aspects of that approach in their teaching. Bhikku Analayo's guided Satipatthana meditation here: http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/439/talk/26718/ makes heavy use of the body-scanning approach.

So, in my experience, it's the Goenka organisation that is very keen to dissociate itself from other Buddha-Dhamma groups, rather than the other way round. They seem to have an efficient organisation, so good luck to them.

:heart:
Mike
Yes they do try to keep distance from other teachings as I have been mentioning. They do not refer to their practice as Buddhism. It goes against the core of what mr Goenka preaches. It has been mentioned to me from the acharia that what they are teaching is different and association with Buddhist teachings can lead to confusion as they teach something different. I believe it is a purity issue, the pristine teaching of the Buddha. There is a difference between monastic Buddhism and Goenka vipassana, I feel at home, like I’ve come back to where I belong while visiting a centre. I just do not have the same core feeling while at a monastery.
I just don’t feel it proper to lump this organization together with theravaden, Ben(past moderator) was a theravaden Buddhist at heart and a huge advocate for this association and combining of the two. Anyone who opposed his views was suspended or threatened by pm. It was straight up bullying and I stood up to this as another long time practitioner of this technique as I hold a different view.
Am I expecting change? NO. I’m just trying to express how many non buddhists of this organization feel who do not wish to feel as though they are being converted to another religion.
Many people come to this teaching from various other organized religions. It is a neutral zone a place completely free from religious belief structures. A place where people heal past traumas. It is not Buddhism, it is offensive to any non Buddhist to have this wonderful technique swallowed up by the buddhist religious machine.

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Zom
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Zom » Mon May 14, 2018 11:25 am

As a result his retreats act like a great Dhamma door
They'd meet Dhamma in this way or another. If not Goenka, they would visit other retreats. If there were no retreats, they would go to somewhere else. The truth is, a minimum of Goenka visitors become buddhists. In this sense, no, he is not "Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire". Quite otherwise, I'd say.

Saengnapha
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Saengnapha » Mon May 14, 2018 4:20 pm

thepea wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am

Many people come to this teaching from various other organized religions. It is a neutral zone a place completely free from religious belief structures. A place where people heal past traumas. It is not Buddhism, it is offensive to any non Buddhist to have this wonderful technique swallowed up by the buddhist religious machine.
More than 30 years ago, I went through Chogyam Trungpa's Shambala training and had a very similar feeling as the one you express above. I felt no religious imagery being fed to the participants and a certain freedom to express non-Buddhist views. I felt quite refreshed after this training and never felt a need to return there or participate in any of the related Tibetan teachings that were accessible then.

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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by thepea » Tue May 15, 2018 1:55 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:20 pm
More than 30 years ago, I went through Chogyam Trungpa's Shambala training and had a very similar feeling as the one you express above. I felt no religious imagery being fed to the participants and a certain freedom to express non-Buddhist views. I felt quite refreshed after this training and never felt a need to return there or participate in any of the related Tibetan teachings that were accessible then.
I think Buddha’s teaching should be free from religion,
It’s not about robes, chanting, bowing, etc..
Essentially s person needs a quiet tranquil place to heal, I just don’t see any benefit in labeling this technique with a religious title. Why add something to it that one may take offence to?

rightviewftw
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 15, 2018 2:28 am

google lists three popular definitions for religion;
  • the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
  • a particular system of faith and worship.
  • a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
i think the third applies particularly well

Saengnapha
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Saengnapha » Tue May 15, 2018 6:57 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 2:28 am
google lists three popular definitions for religion;
  • the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
  • a particular system of faith and worship.
  • a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
i think the third applies particularly well
So sex could be considered a category 3 religion?

rightviewftw
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 15, 2018 8:00 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 6:57 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 2:28 am
google lists three popular definitions for religion;
  • the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
  • a particular system of faith and worship.
  • a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
i think the third applies particularly well
So sex could be considered a category 3 religion?
y.

Afaik the original etymology of religion has to do with a bond between man and god, in that sense the Dhamma is not a religion but it is pursued "religiously" in the above-mentioned sense.

thepea
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by thepea » Tue May 15, 2018 11:37 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:00 am

Afaik the original etymology of religion has to do with a bond between man and god, in that sense the Dhamma is not a religion but it is pursued "religiously" in the above-mentioned sense.
Sorry but I just don’t see the practice as a pursuit.
It’s more like if you cut yourself, you just have to take the appropriate measures as the body knows how to heal itself, you don’t have to pursue your healing.
But besides I’m less interested in whether Goenka s vipassana is called a religion or a cult, but rather that it is given appropriate distance from theravaden Buddhism.
Like zen has distance from Theravada.
It is quite different from monastic Buddhism and I feel this needs to be considered.

rightviewftw
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 15, 2018 11:51 pm

thepea wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:37 pm
It’s more like if you cut yourself, you just have to take the appropriate measures as the body knows how to heal itself, you don’t have to pursue your healing.
do you actually deny that the training is pursued or are you turning a matter of conventional use of the word "religiously" into a discussion about free-will?
AN 4.170
...
He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
...
AN 5.90;
...Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu under training is very busy, he has much to do and is intent on what there is to be done; he neglects seclusion, he does not pursue the inner tranquility of the mind. This, bhikkhus, is the first thing that leads to the deterioration of a bhikkhu under training.
...
Working to achieve is a pursuit, what one is working to achieve that one pursues. Working is a pursuit even if the goal is undesired in the following sense;
SN 22.101...
"Even though this wish may not occur to a monk who dwells devoting himself to development — 'O that my mind might be released from effluents through lack of clinging!' — still his mind is released from the effluents through lack of clinging. Why is that? From developing, it should be said. Developing what? The four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path.
...
I see no reason to complicate the matter at all. If someone tells me that i am training religiously or that i am a religious person i won't take offence but i might ask what they mean by that and discuss what religion means.

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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by thepea » Wed May 16, 2018 1:39 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:51 pm
I see no reason to complicate the matter at all. If someone tells me that i am training religiously or that i am a religious person i won't take offence but i might ask what they mean by that and discuss what religion means.
Yeah no worries,
It’s just when I googled pursuit as definition it referenced pursuit of a thing. To me the practice is not chasing after something it’s more just noticing what is there, you can’t really pursue that which is always there. You just have to become aware of this. Like the body just heals.

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