SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

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Saengnapha
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Saengnapha »

User1249x wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 2:28 am google lists three popular definitions for religion;
  • the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
  • a particular system of faith and worship.
  • a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
i think the third applies particularly well
So sex could be considered a category 3 religion?
User1249x
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by User1249x »

Saengnapha wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 6:57 am
User1249x wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 2:28 am google lists three popular definitions for religion;
  • the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
  • a particular system of faith and worship.
  • a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
i think the third applies particularly well
So sex could be considered a category 3 religion?
y.

Afaik the original etymology of religion has to do with a bond between man and god, in that sense the Dhamma is not a religion but it is pursued "religiously" in the above-mentioned sense.
thepea
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by thepea »

User1249x wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 8:00 am
Afaik the original etymology of religion has to do with a bond between man and god, in that sense the Dhamma is not a religion but it is pursued "religiously" in the above-mentioned sense.
Sorry but I just don’t see the practice as a pursuit.
It’s more like if you cut yourself, you just have to take the appropriate measures as the body knows how to heal itself, you don’t have to pursue your healing.
But besides I’m less interested in whether Goenka s vipassana is called a religion or a cult, but rather that it is given appropriate distance from theravaden Buddhism.
Like zen has distance from Theravada.
It is quite different from monastic Buddhism and I feel this needs to be considered.
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by User1249x »

thepea wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 11:37 pm It’s more like if you cut yourself, you just have to take the appropriate measures as the body knows how to heal itself, you don’t have to pursue your healing.
do you actually deny that the training is pursued or are you turning a matter of conventional use of the word "religiously" into a discussion about free-will?
AN 4.170
...
He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
...
AN 5.90;
...Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu under training is very busy, he has much to do and is intent on what there is to be done; he neglects seclusion, he does not pursue the inner tranquility of the mind. This, bhikkhus, is the first thing that leads to the deterioration of a bhikkhu under training.
...
Working to achieve is a pursuit, what one is working to achieve that one pursues. Working is a pursuit even if the goal is undesired in the following sense;
SN 22.101...
"Even though this wish may not occur to a monk who dwells devoting himself to development — 'O that my mind might be released from effluents through lack of clinging!' — still his mind is released from the effluents through lack of clinging. Why is that? From developing, it should be said. Developing what? The four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path.
...
I see no reason to complicate the matter at all. If someone tells me that i am training religiously or that i am a religious person i won't take offence but i might ask what they mean by that and discuss what religion means.
thepea
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by thepea »

User1249x wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 11:51 pm I see no reason to complicate the matter at all. If someone tells me that i am training religiously or that i am a religious person i won't take offence but i might ask what they mean by that and discuss what religion means.
Yeah no worries,
It’s just when I googled pursuit as definition it referenced pursuit of a thing. To me the practice is not chasing after something it’s more just noticing what is there, you can’t really pursue that which is always there. You just have to become aware of this. Like the body just heals.
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pilgrim
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by pilgrim »

thepea wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 9:31 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 9:15 pm
Who are "you Buddhists"? We've both attended Goenka's Vipassana retreats, and both on a website that is avowedly for Buddhist topics. Whence the label?
“You buddhists” are the ones who need to have everything in the CORRECT box. It is clear from mr Goenka and stated many times that he is not teaching Buddhism. But Buddhist mistakenly wish to lump this teaching into theravaden Buddhism. Because there are “some similarities” there are an incredible number of subtle differences which seperates this organization from theravaden Buddhism.
It would make more sense and be more accurate to create another dhamma wheel for this organization separately rather than trying to force it in with theravaden Buddhism.
There is a huge difference between the vihara I would attend and the Goenka Courses people attend.
The walking like a duck and quacking like a duck must be a duck is an incredibly ignorant and disrespectful view.
At every Goenka retreat, participants take the 3 Refuges, reciting Buddham, Dhammam Sangham saranam gacchami three times. In the Mahanama sutta, AN 8.25, the Buddha says " inasmuch as one has gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, has gone to the Sangha for refuge; in that way, Mahanama, one is a lay follower (upasaka/upasika)."

Ethnic languages like Thai still use this term - Upasaka. But in modern convention lay followers of the Buddha are called Buddhists by English speakers. One can say, that after the retreat ends, one is no longer a Buddhist. That may be true, but for those who consider themselves to be continuing the practice after the formal 10 day retreat, even if they think Buddhists refer to the others, they continue to be Buddhists themselves.

Goenka divorces his teachings from the ritualistic Buddhism that is common. I think that is very skillful of him. But Buddhism is a very wide term and ritualistic Buddhism, while it may be the most common, it is not the only kind of Buddhism.
thepea
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by thepea »

pilgrim wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:42 am At every Goenka retreat, participants take the 3 Refuges, reciting Buddham, Dhammam Sangham saranam gacchami three times. In the Mahanama sutta, AN 8.25, the Buddha says " inasmuch as one has gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, has gone to the Sangha for refuge; in that way, Mahanama, one is a lay follower (upasaka/upasika)."

Ethnic languages like Thai still use this term - Upasaka. But in modern convention lay followers of the Buddha are called Buddhists by English speakers. One can say, that after the retreat ends, one is no longer a Buddhist. That may be true, but for those who consider themselves to be continuing the practice after the formal 10 day retreat, even if they think Buddhists refer to the others, they continue to be Buddhists themselves.

Goenka divorces his teachings from the ritualistic Buddhism that is common. I think that is very skillful of him. But Buddhism is a very wide term and ritualistic Buddhism, while it may be the most common, it is not the only kind of Buddhism.
Again, “you Buddhists” want to put everything in s box and label it Buddhism.
Goenka does not teach Buddhism nor did the buddha.
They teach the dhamma and this is completely different to Buddhism.
I’m not even sure what a Buddhist consists of?
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Dan74-MkII
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Dan74-MkII »

What pilgrim says above sounds very reasonable to me. "You Buddhists" or "you non-Buddhists" are complimentary boxes, both of which are occasionally useful but more often abused, IMO.

Thankfully Buddhism and even Theravada Buddhism is a very broad church. Some folks seem to pretend that Theravada is simply a continuation of the Buddha's dispensation, but it is much more than that. The last 100 years or so have seen a wonderful burst of activity in Theravada, with inspiring teachers sharing the Dhamma in heart-felt idiosynchratic and profound ways. To me it seems almost inevitable that when one truly processes and lives the Dhamma, it will express itself in a unique way rather than some sort of a facsimile of the Suttas. Not at odds with the Suttas, but a living unique expression of the truths and the pointers and the skillful means they contain.

So SN Goenka expressed the Dhamma is his unique way that has brought it to the thousands in the 10-day retreats, prison programs and other outreach. There may well be room for criticism, but overwhelmingly, I would say Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! :bow: :bow: :bow:
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pilgrim
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by pilgrim »

Vipassana in Mongolian prisons - a 2018 documentary with English subtitles.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

.


This writing somehow pleasantly reminds me of Goenkaji, Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire. :bow:
The Buddha, however, taught the tathAgatagarbha teaching for a purpose. He did not intend it to be taken in its prima-facie form as it stands (teaching some sort of intrinsically existent immutable ultimate reality, or True Self, for example) as a literally true doctrine. Rather, through his compassion, he intended it as a means to introduce non-Buddhists to Buddhism. Paul Williams
:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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cappuccino
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: I’m not even sure what a Buddhist consists of?
Buddhist = Learns from Buddha
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by thepea »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:22 pm
thepea wrote: I’m not even sure what a Buddhist consists of?
Buddhist = Learns from Buddha
“Buddhist” indicates religion or a faith or belief structure.
Goenka divorces himself from this as he teaches a practical technique which is the cure to suffering. Buddhism from what I’ve experienced is something completely different.
Buddha had no interest in Buddhism.
Buddha would also divorce from Buddhism.
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Dhammanando
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by Dhammanando »

thepea wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:41 pm “Buddhist” indicates religion or a faith or belief structure.
“Buddhist” is just a modern term for what in the Buddha's day was called a “son (or daughter) of the Sakyan”.
thepea wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:41 pmBuddha would also divorce from Buddhism.
The Buddha of your imagination might do so. But the Buddha of the Pali suttas was a teacher who described himself as a vibhajjavādin, “one who makes distinctions”, as opposed to an ekaṃsavādin, “one who makes blanket judgments about things”.

For example,
“Does Master Gotama praise sacrifice?”

“I do not praise all sacrifice, brahmin, nor do I withhold praise from all sacrifice. I do not praise a violent sacrifice at which cattle, goats, rams, chickens, and pigs are slain, at which various creatures are led to slaughter. For what reason? Because arahants and those who have entered the path to arahantship do not attend a violent sacrifice.

“But I praise a non-violent sacrifice at which cattle, goats, rams, chickens, and pigs are not slain, where various creatures are not slaughtered, that is, a regular giving, a sacrifice offered by family custom. For what reason? Because arahants and those who have entered the path to arahantship attend a non-violent sacrifice.”
(Ujjayasutta)
“The Blessed One, brahmin, did not praise every type of meditation, nor did he condemn every type of meditation.”
(Gopakamoggallānasutta)
Similarly, one may reasonably expect that if the Buddha of the Pali suttas were to encounter what nowadays goes by the name “Buddhism”, he would praise whatever in it merits praise and reject whatever in it merits rejection.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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cappuccino
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: Goenka …

Buddhism from what I’ve experienced is something completely different.
If Buddhism is different, then Goenka has no value…

If Goenka is similar, then he is superfluous…
Last edited by cappuccino on Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cappuccino
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Re: SN Goenka - Theravada Dhammaduta extraordinaire

Post by cappuccino »

Remember…
the Buddha is called the rightly self-awakened one

:candle:
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