why the reluctance??!

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Dhammarakkhito
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why the reluctance??!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:16 am

i hate the west i do like why is it that people dont care enough about others to spread the dhamma. risk being offensive if your intention is compassion. in the suttas it is made clear this is an evangelical religion. the concept of 'pushy' in my opinion does not apply. ghatikara literally dragged the bodhisatta by his hair to see kassapa buddha. who could say they have this much compassion. secular materialists have made people so afraid to be religious or to be like the christians, but you know what, a christian was very nice to me and even tho i disagree with his belief i'm happy that he has faith. it's better to have faith when it helps you act skillfully. i haven't done it yet, but i would totally print off flyers and hang them around town and if one person took in a word of it then i dont care how many people get their panties in a knot
i declare a dhamma jihad
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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dylanj
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by dylanj » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:25 am

:goodpost:
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Sam Vara
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:26 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:16 am
ghatikara literally dragged the bodhisatta by his hair to see kassapa buddha. who could say they have this much compassion.
Very few of us. Those of us still with hatred should be worried that if we acted in ways that people find offensive and pushy, then we might be acting from that hatred rather than compassion.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:31 am

Go forth, o bhikkhus, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, for the good, for the happiness of gods and men. Let not two go by one way. Preach the doctrine that is beautiful in its beginning, beautiful in its middle, and beautiful in its ending. Declare the holy life in its purity, completely both in the spirit and the letter. ~ Mahavagga, Vinaya Pitaka.

i anticipated, 'but that teaching is for monks'
'if u make a fool of yourself it turns others away' i disagree, like dylan said the approach here is counterintuitive. if you actually say what you mean a lot of people will listen, and when you realize that what you're doing is harmful you realize how much a person cared for you to bring you to that point. 'leave others to their kamma' is a disdainful attitude in a way. black and white fallacies abound. you can reveal the dhamma to another person even if they aren't kissing your ass to get it, they might not even like it but it may plant a seed and it's merit for you either/or.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:46 am

i just see it as if a person is like banging their head into a wall apparently thrilled about it, my immediate reaction (as a former and sometimes still a head-banger) is to say stop banging your head into the wall. i will totally accept positive criticism about how to be convincing and stuff, but this country is retarded, you aren't supposed to talk about 'religion' because it's offensive. well im not going to talk about the other stuff it lacks value. it's amazing how free speech is the law but the culture tramples it
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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dylanj
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by dylanj » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:46 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:46 am
i just see it as if a person is like banging their head into a wall apparently thrilled about it, my immediate reaction (as a former and sometimes still a head-banger) is to say stop banging your head into the wall. i will totally accept positive criticism about how to be convincing and stuff, but this country is retarded, you aren't supposed to talk about 'religion' because it's offensive. well im not going to talk about the other stuff it lacks value. it's amazing how free speech is the law but the culture tramples it
:goodpost:
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:53 am

sādhu dylanj
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Sam Vara
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:54 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:31 am
Go forth, o bhikkhus, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, for the good, for the happiness of gods and men. Let not two go by one way. Preach the doctrine that is beautiful in its beginning, beautiful in its middle, and beautiful in its ending. Declare the holy life in its purity, completely both in the spirit and the letter. ~ Mahavagga, Vinaya Pitaka.

i anticipated, 'but that teaching is for monks'
'if u make a fool of yourself it turns others away' i disagree, like dylan said the approach here is counterintuitive. if you actually say what you mean a lot of people will listen, and when you realize that what you're doing is harmful you realize how much a person cared for you to bring you to that point. 'leave others to their kamma' is a disdainful attitude in a way. black and white fallacies abound. you can reveal the dhamma to another person even if they aren't kissing your ass to get it, they might not even like it but it may plant a seed and it's merit for you either/or.
Nice quote, but my point was not about monastics or making a fool of oneself. It is about the possibility of deluding oneself such that what is really an expression of anger or hatred is being rationalised by reference to religion. If one has hatred, it can be manifested in all sorts of ways. Anyone dragging someone by the hair needs to be very sure of their motives.

Where did Dylan say the approach was counterintuitive? One might almost think that you have access to his thoughts... :thinking:

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:38 am

he said that in a different thread the one about pesticides. my point i guess is people don't say what they mean. they speak around an issue
also i had typed up that post before you posted and then posted it without edit
anger is honey tip poison arrow so you're right but
also buddha said simile about reaching down a child's throat to get a stone it had swallowed. even if you have to draw blood
he also said it is impossible to get someone out of the mud if you are yourself stuck in the mud, i'm not trying to make a one-sided case. i've seen a few threads here that really put me in a state of despair the opinions are apathy idk if they have tried in the past and given up or they just dont care or they are doing dhamma to be trendy
the buddhism on the internet and around this forum is different from how i take it
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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binocular
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by binocular » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:55 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:16 am
why is it that people dont care enough about others to spread the dhamma.
What makes you think that is the reason?

Maybe they just don't want to be the blind leading the blind, both falling into a ditch.

i declare a dhamma jihad
Heaven help you if your "dhamma jihad" gets jihaded by your kamma.
:cry:

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:38 am
he said that in a different thread the one about pesticides. my point i guess is people don't say what they mean. they speak around an issue
also i had typed up that post before you posted and then posted it without edit
anger is honey tip poison arrow so you're right but
also buddha said simile about reaching down a child's throat to get a stone it had swallowed. even if you have to draw blood
he also said it is impossible to get someone out of the mud if you are yourself stuck in the mud, i'm not trying to make a one-sided case. i've seen a few threads here that really put me in a state of despair the opinions are apathy idk if they have tried in the past and given up or they just dont care or they are doing dhamma to be trendy
the buddhism on the internet and around this forum is different from how i take it
So you're at least a sotapanna?

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rightviewftw
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:36 am

Not enough confidence in The Dhamma
Not enough confidence in debating skills
Fear of alienation because of views
Aversion to conflict

When people realize that their position is irrefutable they should not confuse a view based on the irrefutable with the irrefutable and always show compasion in delivery of the message, picking the right timing and try avoid making people feel bad or stupid on account of their views. That is the real challenge tbh with you.

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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by befriend » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:07 pm

invite a monk or Dhamma teacher to come talk at a Unitarian Universalist church. Put up flyers around town for it every month and start a sitting group. This is how the Dhamma is spread.
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by befriend » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:10 pm

Some Dhamma teachers reach sitting groups via Skype where there's a will there's a way.
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by befriend » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:13 pm

There is no problem with putting flyers up around town or posting events in the newspaper to come to a Buddhist group or to see a Dhamma teacher.
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dharmacorps
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by dharmacorps » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:12 pm

Buddhism isn't evangelical. How do I know? Monks aren't allowed to teach without being asked to teach.

I also find it interesting that one of the main parks the Buddha and Sangha stayed in was next to a butcher who slaughtered pigs. The Buddha was obviously against killing. He never preached to the butcher, and the butcher never asked to be taught dhamma.

This isn't a Judeo-christian religion where we need to convert people. Buddhism is a system of education which people have to voluntarily undertake. As Sam Vara said, you're going to do more harm than good by being preachy, evangelical or heavy handed. If you are happy you have found the dhamma, good-- the best thing you can do now is practice for yourself.

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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by befriend » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:29 pm

There is a middle way between indifference and proselytizing which I have suggested in my previous posts.
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:53 pm

exactly, befriend.

"Just as a firebrand from a funeral pyre — burning at both ends, covered with excrement in the middle — is used as fuel neither in a village nor in the wilderness: I tell you that this is a simile for the individual who practices neither for his/her own benefit nor for that of others. The individual who practices for the benefit of others but not for his/her own is the higher & more refined of these two. The individual who practices for his/her own benefit but not for that of others is the highest & most refined of these three. The individual who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others is, of these four, the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme. Just as from a cow comes milk; from milk, curds; from curds, butter; from butter, ghee; from ghee, the skimmings of ghee; and of these, the skimmings of ghee are reckoned the foremost — in the same way, of these four, the individual who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others is the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:57 pm

me personally i had a lot of skepticism but i was told over and over and for me that worked. yes there are people that buddha gave the 'ultimate penalty' by not talking to them because they were unteachable. but he taught many people, even people that cursed him to his face. who of us know who is teachable, who is not.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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xofz
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by xofz » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:21 pm

Without clout, it is hard to teach. So I keep to myself. The teachings of the Buddha are alive and well. Best to just stay out of trouble. Who needs to be a bodhisattva? Plenty of those around. Truly liberated consciousnesses do not have to spread dhamma; leave that for the sangha. Does there really need to be more teachers? Solitude is the only teacher I needed. The world is on fire; what good could one more firefighter do? The fruit of the Buddha is for one's own benefit. No one is asking me to teach. So I keep to myself.
My real life name is Sam.

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dylanj
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Re: why the reluctance??!

Post by dylanj » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:22 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:12 pm
Buddhism isn't evangelical. How do I know? Monks aren't allowed to teach without being asked to teach.
citation please
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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