Convertion of muslims

Organisational work, teaching, Sunday school syllabus, charitable work, outreach, sharing of resources, artwork, etc.
User avatar
khemindas
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:06 am
Location: Myanmar
Contact:

Convertion of muslims

Post by khemindas » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:01 am

So according to article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam most of muslim thinking that man committing Apostasy from Islam should killed. I think muslims if they converted to Islam should not tell anyone, otherwise they can be killed.

Meggo
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 2:42 pm

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Meggo » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:38 am

Maybe I don't understand, but are you promoting murder?

Garrib
Posts: 345
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Garrib » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:54 am

I don't think he is advocating killing, no. I think he is saying that if someone has converted to another religion (Buddhism, for example) from Islam, then they should perhaps keep that to themselves if they live in a place where extremist groups might target. Is that correct?

Meggo
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 2:42 pm

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Meggo » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:25 am

khemindas wrote:So according to article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam most of muslim thinking that man committing Apostasy from Islam should killed. I think muslims if they converted to Islam should not tell anyone, otherwise they can be killed.
So the second sentence should be something like

I think muslims, when they convert from islam (to X), should not tell anyone, otherwise they could be killed.

Yes?

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18598
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:36 am

Greetings,

Yes, that's what was said.

Arguably good advice... if one is insistent on pursuing "the religion of peace", that is.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1402
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by pilgrim » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:32 am

There are many ex-Muslims who are active on Facebook and various forums, but they use a pseudonym or otherwise keep their identity secret. Just google the word Murtad , which is Arabic for apostate.

User avatar
khemindas
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:06 am
Location: Myanmar
Contact:

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by khemindas » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:32 am

Meggo wrote:Maybe I don't understand, but are you promoting murder?
No of course. Promoting murder is Parajika for monk. I don't know how did you read my topic. I wrote, that anyone converted to Buddhism from Islam should not tell anyone that he converted, otherwise he would be killed, because according to Islamic religion they should kill anyone who left their religion.

Meggo
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 2:42 pm

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Meggo » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:20 am

Ok, then you are of course right! The problem is in some countries (like mine), if you want to officially declare that you believe in religion-X (like to put that into a document) you can only do that, if you first also officially declare that you don't believe in your "original" religion-Y anymore, by sending the representatives of religion-Y a letter about that, thus practically telling them you are an apostate. You have to do that, if you don't want to break the law!

Caodemarte
Posts: 754
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Caodemarte » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:59 am

Different people hold different views at different times as the article says. The Koran itself says "there is no compulsion in religion."

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3051
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:27 am

khemindas wrote:
Meggo wrote:Maybe I don't understand, but are you promoting murder?
No of course. Promoting murder is Parajika for monk. I don't know how did you read my topic. I wrote, that anyone converted to Buddhism from Islam should not tell anyone that he converted, otherwise he would be killed, because according to Islamic religion they should kill anyone who left their religion.
Hi Bhante,
In the OP you wrote
if they converted to Islam should not tell anyone, otherwise they can be killed
Which has a different meaning to
that anyone converted to Buddhism from Islam should not tell anyone that he converted, otherwise he would be killed
Both of these are incorrect.

For example in the UK I remember at one time there was a mae chee who came from a Thai Muslim background and she was not killed. There was also an anagarika who came from a South Asian Muslim family and he also was not killed.
because according to Islamic religion they should kill anyone who left their religion.
Referring to the Wikipedia article you linked to this does not seem to be the case.

:anjali:

Buddha Vacana
Posts: 607
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:16 am

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Buddha Vacana » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:42 am

In Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen apostasy is punishable by death sentence.

There are certainly cases of people outside these countries getting murdered for having left the religion as well.

Hence Bhante's advice can be relevant in some places.

User avatar
khemindas
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:06 am
Location: Myanmar
Contact:

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by khemindas » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:43 am

Mr Man wrote:
khemindas wrote:
Meggo wrote:Maybe I don't understand, but are you promoting murder?
No of course. Promoting murder is Parajika for monk. I don't know how did you read my topic. I wrote, that anyone converted to Buddhism from Islam should not tell anyone that he converted, otherwise he would be killed, because according to Islamic religion they should kill anyone who left their religion.
Hi Bhante,
In the OP you wrote
if they converted to Islam should not tell anyone, otherwise they can be killed
Which has a different meaning to
that anyone converted to Buddhism from Islam should not tell anyone that he converted, otherwise he would be killed
Both of these are incorrect.

For example in the UK I remember at one time there was a mae chee who came from a Thai Muslim background and she was not killed. There was also an anagarika who came from a South Asian Muslim family and he also was not killed.
because according to Islamic religion they should kill anyone who left their religion.
Referring to the Wikipedia article you linked to this does not seem to be the case.

:anjali:
ํํYes, sometime some exception are made, but according to Sharia rules it's prescribed to killing. Same as some Nazi not killed jews this as an exception.

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3051
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:32 am

Buddha Vacana wrote:In Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen apostasy is punishable by death sentence.

There are certainly cases of people outside these countries getting murdered for having left the religion as well.

Hence Bhante's advice can be relevant in some places.
Hi Buddha Vacana
Perhaps Bhante needs to be more precise with his speech.

I searched "apostasy Malaysia" and found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_o ... _state_law

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1216
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Bundokji » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:36 am

I was born as a Muslim and left the religion at a young age. I live in Jordan and i don't hide being a Buddhist, and i am not threatened by anyone.

A distinction should be made between theory and practice. In theory, there is a Hadith which says plainly "kill those who change their religion" referring to Muslims of course. But in practice, most Muslims would not take the law by their hand, and they are willing to listen and to disagree, but without using violence.

There is a big debate among Muslims and between different sects in relation to this issue. When Muhammad started preaching, he was peaceful and introduced certain rules that he changed later when circumstances changed. For instance, drinking alchohol was permitted at the beginning pending that a Muslim does not perform the prayers while under the influence of Alchohol, so many of Muhammad's followers used to drink after the last prayer in the night, and they can get sober before the morning prayer. Then another verse at a later stage banned alchohol completely and replaced the previous one. Both verses are in the Quran, but for those who want to understand Islam they better read it within the historical context.

The abovementioned Hadith was not long before the death of Muhammad, so most clergymen believe that it overrides the dovish and more peaceful verses which was revealed earlier, while those who try to reform emphasize that this Hadith was referring to a specific case and should not be generalized. There is also division on how seriously should Muslims take the Hadith especially when it contradicts the Quran. Most Salafies take the Hadith very seriously. So the distinction made by one of the contributors is valid, that it is more dangerous to declare apostasy in certain countries than others. Different Muslim countries incorporate Islam with the civil law to various degrees. The most extreme cases are Saudi and Iran.

To sum up: from theological point of view, the vast majority believe that Muslims who change their religion should be killed. Moderate Muslims dispute it and try to present Islam as peaceful. Many believe in it but don't act upon it.
“It happened that a fire broke out backstage in a theater. The clown came out to inform the public. They thought it was a jest and applauded. He repeated his warning. They shouted even louder. So I think the world will come to an end amid the general applause from all the wits who believe that it is a joke.”
Søren Kierkegaard

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3051
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:01 pm

Thanks for your input Bundokji.

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 3776
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Cremation Ground, Phrao District, Chiangmai

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:06 pm

khemindas wrote:So according to article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam most of muslim thinking that man committing Apostasy from Islam should killed. I think muslims if they converted to Islam should not tell anyone, otherwise they can be killed.
Should this be:

"I think muslims if they converted to Buddhism" ?

Caodemarte
Posts: 754
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Caodemarte » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:07 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote:In Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen apostasy is punishable by death sentence.

There are certainly cases of people outside these countries getting murdered for having left the religion as well.

Hence Bhante's advice can be relevant in some places.
Not so true in Nigeria. Among 12 states in Nigeria who have some form of sharia law conversion from Islam is an offense in those states and some have the death penalty in theory. However, I have never heard of it actually being applied. It would seem to be instant political suicide to try to do so. I don't know about the other countries.

It may be interesting to note that for the first century or so after the early Islamic conquests conversion of non-Arabs to Islam was not allowed. At that time, Islam was seen as a religion for the conquering Arabs and Muslims had special tax breaks and privileges. Even after conversion was allowed it was not usually encouraged. Even later non-Arab Muslim rulers and conquerors did not like to lose a source of revenue or erase the distinctions between the ruled and the rulers. Joining "the equal community of believers" would certainly be a loss for the ruler so there was no incentive to use force and good reason to allow the practice of other religions. This is one reason why the Islamic world was considered far more tolerant than Christian Europe for many centuries.

DooDoot
Posts: 570
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:26 pm

Caodemarte wrote:Joining "the equal community of believers" would certainly be a loss for the ruler so there was no incentive to use force and good reason to allow the practice of over religions. This is one reason why the Islamic world was considered far more tolerant than Christian Europe for many centuries.
Indeed. Before the ex-Buddhist Mongols took over the Islamic Empire & started butchering & slaughtering, the Islamic Empire I heard was similar to the Roman Empire, primarily interested in raising taxation revenue rather than changing cultures. This is why numerous non-Muslim religious sects continued under Islam, such as Christian sects previously persecuted by the Roman & Byzantine Churches, & the Jewish community becoming not only enormously wealthy but reached heights in their own culture. Some Buddhists need to practise more vimansa (investigation) rather than place faith (saddha) in the mass-media. As for Christianity in Europe & the Americas, it essentially made extinct every indigenous religion. Funny how the mass-media has the Buddhists cheering for Muslim war also.
The golden age of Jewish culture in Spain coincided with the Middle Ages in Europe, a period of Muslim rule throughout much of the Iberian Peninsula. During intermittent periods of time, Jews were generally accepted in society and Jewish religious, cultural, and economic life blossomed.
:candle:
khemindas wrote:ํํYes, sometime some exception are made, but according to Sharia rules it's prescribed to killing. Same as some Nazi not killed jews this as an exception.
Possibly, Sam Harris & Bhikkhu Bodhi could be invited to support such viewpoints.
khemindas wrote:No of course. Promoting murder is Parajika for monk.
So by comparing Muslims to those evil Nazis, what exactly is being promoted here, Venerable Bhikkhu?
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Buddha Vacana
Posts: 607
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:16 am

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Buddha Vacana » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:32 pm

This is the situation in Malaysia. I think I still wouldn't advertise it if I were to give up the faith

I am all for not agitating for conflicts and antagonisms but that doesn't mean we should not see the reality for what it is when investigating it

Image

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malay ... U1roixQ.97

DooDoot
Posts: 570
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:38 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote:I am all for not agitating for conflicts and antagonisms but that doesn't mean we should not see the reality for what it is when investigating it.
Sounds like how it was once risky in the USA being a 'Communist'. Islam is not the same as Buddhism because it does have a political component, similar to the old Judaism, where the death penalty also applied to apostasy. If you don't want to be a Muslim in Malaysia then it might be wise & respectful to emigrate given societies do often require some kind of core culture to remain sustainable. It might be useful to ask why extremism is growing in the world, not only in some Muslim nations?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bhikkhu Cintita and 1 guest