Convertion of muslims

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Bundokji
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Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Bundokji » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:01 pm

khemindas wrote: but you can steal from Kafir
Where did you get this from if i may ask?
ولَرُبَّ نَازِلَةٍ يَضِيقُ بهَا الفَضَـــــا *** ذَرْعًا؛ وعِندَ الله مِنهَا المَخْرَجُ
عَظُمَت فَلَما استُحكِمت حَلقاتها *** فُرِجت وكَانَ يَظُنُّهَا لا تُفْرَجُ
لا تَيْأَسَنَ فَكُلُ عُسْــــــرٍ بَعْــدَهُ *** يُسر يُسرّ ُبِهِ الفُؤَادُ المُحَرَّجُ
واصبر فَإِنَّ الصَــــــبر في الدُّنْيَا *** نَيْلُ المُنَى والقَصْدُ نِعْمَ المْنهجُ

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:49 pm

Bundokji wrote:
khemindas wrote: but you can steal from Kafir
Where did you get this from if i may ask?
The quote used to justify this, by some (apparently), is:
“So enjoy what you took as booty; the spoils are lawful and good”– Koran 8:69
Obviously this required some "interpretation" to get "you can steal from kafirs". I googled it, and a certain Anwar al-Awlaki (according to this somewhat questionable article, from which I got that first quote from the Koran) uses this quote to justify, it seems, stealing from any "kafir" :thinking:.

If you go back to 8:61-62 we get: "(61) And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing. (62) But if they intend to deceive you - then sufficient for you is Allah . It is He who supported you with His help and with the believers" <-- so I fail to see the reasoning presented in the article. Then again, I am a foreigner to the tradition in question, but it seems this is specifically referring to war in which the non-muslims are the aggressors. There is still the issue of advocating for "just war", that has its own well-warranted debate, but its hardly saying anyone can steal from any kafir any time.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgata-seed, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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binocular
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Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by binocular » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:21 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Bundokji wrote:
khemindas wrote: but you can steal from Kafir
Where did you get this from if i may ask?
The quote used to justify this, by some (apparently), is:
“So enjoy what you took as booty; the spoils are lawful and good”– Koran 8:69
It's not surprising, though. Theists tend to see themselves as fully empowered representatives of God on earth.

If a theistic preacher comes to your property to preach to you, and you send them away, saying, "Get off my land!", prepare to be replied with something like, "No, this is God's land, not yours. I am acting in God's name, so I can be here."

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:25 pm

binocular wrote:"No, this is God's land, not yours. I am acting in God's name, so I can be here."
I've politely turned away Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons a few times before and never got such a reaction! :jawdrop:
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgata-seed, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Bundokji
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by Bundokji » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:15 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Bundokji wrote:
khemindas wrote: but you can steal from Kafir
Where did you get this from if i may ask?
The quote used to justify this, by some (apparently), is:
“So enjoy what you took as booty; the spoils are lawful and good”– Koran 8:69
Obviously this required some "interpretation" to get "you can steal from kafirs". I googled it, and a certain Anwar al-Awlaki (according to this somewhat questionable article, from which I got that first quote from the Koran) uses this quote to justify, it seems, stealing from any "kafir" :thinking:.

If you go back to 8:61-62 we get: "(61) And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing. (62) But if they intend to deceive you - then sufficient for you is Allah . It is He who supported you with His help and with the believers" <-- so I fail to see the reasoning presented in the article. Then again, I am a foreigner to the tradition in question, but it seems this is specifically referring to war in which the non-muslims are the aggressors. There is still the issue of advocating for "just war", that has its own well-warranted debate, but its hardly saying anyone can steal from any kafir any time.
:thanks:

Spoils of war is not stealing. And as you said, its not only the article that is questionable, but the whole website does not seem very credible.

Here is a website where people get Fatwas

https://islamqa.info/en/14367
ولَرُبَّ نَازِلَةٍ يَضِيقُ بهَا الفَضَـــــا *** ذَرْعًا؛ وعِندَ الله مِنهَا المَخْرَجُ
عَظُمَت فَلَما استُحكِمت حَلقاتها *** فُرِجت وكَانَ يَظُنُّهَا لا تُفْرَجُ
لا تَيْأَسَنَ فَكُلُ عُسْــــــرٍ بَعْــدَهُ *** يُسر يُسرّ ُبِهِ الفُؤَادُ المُحَرَّجُ
واصبر فَإِنَّ الصَــــــبر في الدُّنْيَا *** نَيْلُ المُنَى والقَصْدُ نِعْمَ المْنهجُ

lostitude
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:02 am

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by lostitude » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:40 am

As an ex-Muslim, I recently told most of my close Muslim friends (most of them very conservative) that I am now a GAY BUDDHIST (lol). None of them thinks I should be killed.
As someone said earlier, interpretations of the hadith on apostasy can be quite divergent. Even al-Qaradawi, who is from the ultra-conservative fringe of islam, believes that it was quite natural for Muslims to kill apostates at a time (7th century) when 'leaving Islam' was synonymous with 'crossing over to the enemy'. Islam was not only seen as a religion (deen) but also as a nation (umma). So giving up islam was like giving up your citizenship and rejecting your nationality to adopt the enemy's nationality, and then possibly come back to fight and kill members of your former community. So it was meant to be applied in a very specific context.

Besides, one major aspect of shari'a law is dissuasion. The punishments are deliberately scary and are meant to be applicable as seldom as possible.
Last edited by lostitude on Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

lostitude
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:02 am

Re: Convertion of muslims

Post by lostitude » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:49 am

khemindas wrote: I quite disagree with you, I think your knowledge of Islam is very basic, is not the same as for other religions. In Islam you can't steal from muslim, or kill muslim, but you can steal from Kafir, or kill Kafir in some situation. I think you should study both Quran and Sunnah (Hadith) first than you can see real picture.
This is an understandable, but very common mistake. What you call 'islam' is actually a reference to Muslims in general. When you say 'islam', you actually mean 'The Muslims around me". Yet, to understand Muslims in general, you refer to texts instead of studying the human beings making up the group that you call 'islam'.
And obviously, you will have your interpretation of those texts, and they will have their interpretationS (plural) of those texts. And you cannot know how they interpret those texts if you don't know them, and how they think, and the varying levels of importance they give to those texts.
So all you can do when reading Islamic sources, is have an idea of what the authors of those texts used to think. But this in no way allows you to draw any valid conclusion about Muslims in general.

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