Go forth, o bhikkhus !

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Kare
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Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by Kare » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:09 pm

befriend wrote:wait to be a stream winner before teaching? why? why not just teach them the suttas, buddhas was more than a streamwinner listen to him. its not like your the only buddhist in the world. someone can learn the basics from you, and if they pass you in insight, they can see a better teacher whom has more insight. if you wait to be a streamwinner you might die before you end up teaching, and that is sad.
This reminds me of a Swedish folksong:

Vänta inte med att sjunga tills du blir gammal
för i så fall så kan det hända sig att du dör
förrän du sjungit en enda sång.

Don't wait till you are old before you sing,
for then you may die
without having sung a single song.

:D

Now just transfer this idea from singing to teaching the Dhamma. :D
Mettāya,
Kåre

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manas
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Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by manas » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:52 pm

I say this with metta, ok, but will everyone who admonished me for what I said about feeling the need for direct seeing ie stream-entry fruit, before I feel ready to preach, please get out there and preach then? Please do go for it, I will catch up with you. I personally just do not feel ready yet, it's not that I do not wish to instruct others. It's also that to do so now would feel a tad egotistical (for me, anyway). Isn't it written somewhere that one should first learn oneself, before instructing others? Physician heal thyself, as they say.

metta.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

befriend
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Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by befriend » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:00 pm

manasikara wrote:I say this with metta, ok, but will everyone who admonished me for what I said about feeling the need for direct seeing ie stream-entry fruit, before I feel ready to preach, please get out there and preach then? Please do go for it, I will catch up with you. I personally just do not feel ready yet, it's not that I do not wish to instruct others. It's also that to do so now would feel a tad egotistical (for me, anyway). Isn't it written somewhere that one should first learn oneself, before instructing others? Physician heal thyself, as they say.

metta.


i asked a dhamma teacher to teach in my town, he comes once a month now hundreds of people have learned meditation from this. i put up flyers for this once a month. i show metta meditation to people who want me to teach them, i go to places that need metta and ask them if they want to learn metta. im sorry if i judged you. different strokes for different folks.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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manas
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Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by manas » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:15 pm

befriend wrote:i asked a dhamma teacher to teach in my town, he comes once a month now hundreds of people have learned meditation from this. i put up flyers for this once a month. i show metta meditation to people who want me to teach them, i go to places that need metta and ask them if they want to learn metta. im sorry if i judged you. different strokes for different folks.
Thank you for your kind understanding, befriend. Here, a personal tale fromn me:
First came the Christians. Not having met Jesus personally, and not having seen hell directly, they adamantly proclaimed to me: "believe in Jesus or you will go to hell!"

Then came the Hare Krishnas. Not having met Krishna personally, and not having seen krishna's abode directly, they adamantly proclaimed to me: "cultivate love of Krishna and you will live eternally in Krishna's spiritual kingdom of eternal knowledge and bliss!"

Then came the Buddhists.They did not approach me; I approached them. They did not threaten me with hell-fire, or try to shove their teachings down my throat; but when asked, they would assist me in whatever way they could with regard to the Doctrine. And best of all, not having seen, they did not proclaim, "I see"; not having known, they did not proclaim, "I know". They seemed to only speak from what they had personally realized for themselves. That's why I kept coming back, and here I am, twenty or so years later, still a Buddhist.
:buddha2:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

isle21self
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Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by isle21self » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:57 am

manasikara I just have to thank you for doing your proper duty as a monk here and having some wisdom and conscience.

Many of you might think it wrong not to preach, but the fact is that unless we know what we're talking about its best to keep your opinions to ourselves. This doesn't mean that if someone asks to be tight-lipped and evasive, but not to try to give too much advice as if one is an authority on the matter. Only an ariya has any certain knowledge of the path enough to give more definitive advice; to start boldy giving it without knowing the subject matter is deceitful and unhelpful. If one truly wants to help others one should first seek to become an ariya then help others to become ariyas. If we are not one we really don't have much to preach do we?

It might seem that monks aren't preaching, but that isn't exactly the truth. Most Theravadin monks aren't preaching to non-buddhists is the fact of the matter. Not that there aren't some, but those who do are few. I think this touches alongside the recent thread about Gombrich's speech to Theravada Council in Thailand. The monks are more than happy to preach to individuals who are already buddhists. They have authority and power over them and the usual problems of self-identity view refy themselves in this environment. Some are even so bold as to make claims that they are ariyas, which in the Vinaya is a parajikka(sp?) offense. I think this might be coming from the Asian-Western dichotomy and the fact that there are more Asian monks. I'm not disparaging all Asian monks for there are many good ones. Unfortunately, they are mostly outnumbered and not as influential. These monks have a more quality over quantity kind of mindset. They simply have neither the numbers nor the power within the sangha to be cleaning house and directing teachings in mass scale.

So we should be more supportive and praising of monks who are more reserved about giving the teaching for understandable reasons. They who don't try to place themselves in positions to which they are unworthy. They who do try to preach only do on the things they feel they have a decent grasp of doing so. This is how your preserve the dhamma is by having monastics who feel responsible not those who are eager to rush into things that are beyond them. The job of the teacher is very difficult especially in this time where nearly all the world seems to find chasing after sense pleasures the most worthy(and sometimes only) pursuit in life.

befriend
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Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by befriend » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:05 pm

so you think jack kornfield, sharon salzberg, josheph goldstein, the dalai lama, thich nhat hanh, pema chodron should keep there mouths shut because there not arahants????
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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manas
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Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by manas » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:50 pm

isle21self wrote:manasikara I just have to thank you for doing your proper duty as a monk here and having some wisdom and conscience.
I thank you for your kind words, isle, but I'm no monk, just an ordinary layperson. In fact a layperson going through a very difficult time at present. So any encouragement to just keep practicing is appreciated, and to your credit.

with metta.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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manas
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by manas » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:04 pm

befriend wrote:so you think jack kornfield, sharon salzberg, josheph goldstein, the dalai lama, thich nhat hanh, pema chodron should keep there mouths shut because there not arahants????
Hi befriend,

I say this with metta, I am bolding this so that there will be no more misunderstandings of what I said:

I never said that we should wait until we are arahants before going out to preach, only that we should have reached stream-entry. And that is just my opinion, anyway. I'm not claiming that the Buddha said it.

Secondly, if we are faith followers or dhamma followers and not yet broken through to stream-entry, what is wrong with us acting in a support role for others more advanced? Which is what you appear to be doing, in having a monk visit your town. I never said we can't do that! Quite the opposite. I was actually saying that until we have crossed beyond all doubt, we should not preach too much ourselves, but rather refer people on to those who can speak with certainty, and support the preaching activites of those more advanced practitioners. But once again, just my personal opinion, and I'm not imposing it on anyone but myself.

metta.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

befriend
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 am

Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by befriend » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:21 pm

manasikara wrote:
befriend wrote:so you think jack kornfield, sharon salzberg, josheph goldstein, the dalai lama, thich nhat hanh, pema chodron should keep there mouths shut because there not arahants????
Hi befriend,

I say this with metta, I am bolding this so that there will be no more misunderstandings of what I said:

I never said that we should wait until we are arahants before going out to preach, only that we should have reached stream-entry. And that is just my opinion, anyway. I'm not claiming that the Buddha said it.

Secondly, if we are faith followers or dhamma followers and not yet broken through to stream-entry, what is wrong with us acting in a support role for others more advanced? Which is what you appear to be doing, in having a monk visit your town. I never said we can't do that! Quite the opposite. I was actually saying that until we have crossed beyond all doubt, we should not preach too much ourselves, but rather refer people on to those who can speak with certainty, and support the preaching activites of those more advanced practitioners. But once again, just my personal opinion, and I'm not imposing it on anyone but myself.

metta.


i was not talking about you.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

chownah
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Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:34 am

My goodness! What is the big deal about teaching the Dhama......if anyone should ask me if the Buddha taught everything that he knew I would say that in the scriptures there is a sutta that says that the Buddha only taught about the way to end suffering and that I have never seen anything that said he taught everything that he knew...and that I am not the last word in interpreting the Pali texts so of course someone might disagree with me on this....

And thus I would be teaching the Dhamma.......anyone can do this.....it does not take any sort of credential to teach anything anywhere anytime.....but to be a good teacher one must know ones limitations and point out the existence of other points of view and be sure to make that part of every lesson.

chownah

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manas
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Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by manas » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:45 am

chownah wrote:My goodness! What is the big deal about teaching the Dhama......if anyone should ask me if the Buddha taught everything that he knew I would say that in the scriptures there is a sutta that says that the Buddha only taught about the way to end suffering and that I have never seen anything that said he taught everything that he knew...and that I am not the last word in interpreting the Pali texts so of course someone might disagree with me on this....

And thus I would be teaching the Dhamma.......anyone can do this.....it does not take any sort of credential to teach anything anywhere anytime.....but to be a good teacher one must know ones limitations and point out the existence of other points of view and be sure to make that part of every lesson.

chownah
...and of course I agree with you. Of course if I am asked a question about Dhamma, I will answer it as best as I can, I would not hold back. But no one is disputing that. I think that what some of us have been discussing here, is more the idea of laypersons such as ourselves 'going forth to make converts to Buddhism'...That is the bone of contention here, rather than whether we should answer simple questions put ot us (to which the answer is, yes, of course we should!).

metta
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

chownah
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:42 am

manasikara wrote:
chownah wrote:My goodness! What is the big deal about teaching the Dhama......if anyone should ask me if the Buddha taught everything that he knew I would say that in the scriptures there is a sutta that says that the Buddha only taught about the way to end suffering and that I have never seen anything that said he taught everything that he knew...and that I am not the last word in interpreting the Pali texts so of course someone might disagree with me on this....

And thus I would be teaching the Dhamma.......anyone can do this.....it does not take any sort of credential to teach anything anywhere anytime.....but to be a good teacher one must know ones limitations and point out the existence of other points of view and be sure to make that part of every lesson.

chownah
...and of course I agree with you. Of course if I am asked a question about Dhamma, I will answer it as best as I can, I would not hold back. But no one is disputing that. I think that what some of us have been discussing here, is more the idea of laypersons such as ourselves 'going forth to make converts to Buddhism'...That is the bone of contention here, rather than whether we should answer simple questions put ot us (to which the answer is, yes, of course we should!).

metta
Sorry for my misunderstanding....I thought this thead was about teaching the Dhamma....but I guess I was wrong.....it is not about teaching the Dhamma, it is about converting people.......
chownah

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pilgrim
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Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by pilgrim » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:09 am

chownah wrote: Sorry for my misunderstanding....I thought this thead was about teaching the Dhamma....but I guess I was wrong.....it is not about teaching the Dhamma, it is about converting people.......
chownah
The word "convert" has been given bad connotations by Christian missionaries and their questionable objectives . But in Buddhism, converting one from adhamma to dhamma is about the greatest good one can do. The Buddha says the gift of Dhamma is the greatest gift and the only way one can repay the kindness of parents is to establish them in the Dhamma.

chownah
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Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:40 pm

pilgrim wrote:
chownah wrote: Sorry for my misunderstanding....I thought this thead was about teaching the Dhamma....but I guess I was wrong.....it is not about teaching the Dhamma, it is about converting people.......
chownah
The word "convert" has been given bad connotations by Christian missionaries and their questionable objectives . But in Buddhism, converting one from adhamma to dhamma is about the greatest good one can do. The Buddha says the gift of Dhamma is the greatest gift and the only way one can repay the kindness of parents is to establish them in the Dhamma.
Seems that what you describe as converting in buddhism is the exact same thing as converting in christian missionary work.....even the mind set that it is the "greatest good one can do" is the same.
Is the idea of "converting one from adhamma to dhamma" found in any scripture....I'm sort of wondering about the term "adhamma" as to whether it exists at all in the scriptures and if so was it used in the way you are describing as "converting" people.
chownah

befriend
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Re: Go forth, o bhikkhus !

Post by befriend » Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:56 pm

when i teach guided metta meditation, i dont say stop believing in jesus and muhammed and take refuge in the triple gem. i say visualize someone you love and wish them well. not much of a conversion. ever been to catholic church and experienced everyone shaking hands and saying peace be with you? sounds like metta to me.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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