Raw Diet?

A place to discuss health and fitness, healthy diets. A fit body makes for a fit mind.

Have you tried Raw diet?

I'm already eating raw foods.
5
12%
Once, I might try it again.
4
10%
Once, I'm not interested.
2
5%
I'll try it.
5
12%
I'm not interested.
25
61%
 
Total votes: 41

meindzai
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:10 pm

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by meindzai » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:55 pm

I researched it and tried it for quite awhile. I'm glad I did as I learned a lot, and got a lot of great recipes that I occasionally use (like raw apple pie).

But for the most part it's expensive, unrealistic, extreme, and alienating.

Expensive: In order to get the calories needed on a daily basis from raw foods alone you need to eat a lot of them. $20 to $30 a day is not unusual for raw food. This includes a lot of nuts (raw ones of course, not toasted, and you're supposed to soak them to make them "alive") which have never really been a part of the human diet on the scale required to sustain a raw food diet.

Trying it for a few days is actually a nice way to clean out the body and get a little burst of energy, but it gets old quick.

Unrealistic: No carbs from bread, no pasta, no potatoes (because they cannot be eaten raw) no rice, no coffee, no tea, no salt, no pepper (condiments are "toxic!" according to raw foodies). No beans of course, a major source of protein for most vegans and vegetarians, unless they are simply soaked and perhaps sprouted, a very tedious process.

Extreme: There is simply no need to eat in such an extreme way when there are many healthy cooked foods, including some whose vitamin content is actually helped along or more readily absorbed when they are cooked. (tomatoesand broccoli are two examples).

Alienating: Have fun at family dinners, restaurants, and even, yes, monasteries trying to put a whole meal together with raw foods. "Can I have another salad? Can I have more salad? No thanks I can't have the carrots/potatoes/broccoli/cabbage/beans you've spent all that time making. Can I have four bananas and an apple?"

In fact it was at a monastery where I broke my raw food phase since I simply wasn't going to get the calories I needed in the two meals (Theravada monastery so no meal after noon) from the uncooked food that was there.

On the subject of alienation, the internet forums no better represent raw food people then they represent Buddhists, probably, so the following is a bit of an unfair judgement. I spent time on some raw food forums and I found most of the adherents there to be uber left-wing (that's a lot coming from a Buddhist, you know) paranoid and alarmist. They threw the word "toxic" around with regards to any and all foods not raw, including spices, tea, coffee, etc. Some would even debate as to whether it was ethical to eat seeds(you're depriving the plants ability to reproduce, you evil swine), and whether even certain parts of the fruits and vegetables were "toxic." People that did not eat raw food were automatically put into the category of "SAD" (standard american diet). Again, the internet crowd probably represents a sorry bunch compared to whatever a "normal" raw food eater is like, but they were a silly, sorry, lonely group of people.

Vegan/vegetarianism is ok - still somewhat extreme for me. But the most moderate bet is Michal Pollan's advice which you indicated above "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants." Learn to cook and cook well. Have fun with recipes. Cook real food, not from boxes or packages. Buy and plant fresh herbs and use them. Stay out of fast food places mostly, but go if you have too and don't beat yourself up for eating at burger king because you were driving across the country and you and your wife were starving and it was the only place available. (Hypothetically speaking). Buy local and organic when possible but neither beat up yourself when you buy from the local supermarket because the farmers market closed already and there's nothing for dinner.

There's so much hype and paranoia out there about what we're supposed to be eating when it's all really a pretty simple fact of not buying into any of the hype of the extremists (on one end) not paying attention to what the nutrition scientists say this week or that week about which berry you should have more of. On the other end don't fall into the fast food/packaged food easy stuff. Just apply moderate effort to reasonable eating and you'll be fine.

Sorry if that got ranty. It's something I've given a bit of thought to.

-M

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by PeterB » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:11 pm

In my absolutist way I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but I rather thought that part of the raw food agenda was the pursuit of alienation.

Certainly those patients I have had referred to me who very early on declare themselves to be raw food devotees are among the most angry people I have ever met. Usually its a good way to worry mum/mom. Its a prolonged revenge for being born.

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by Jhana4 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:26 pm

meindzai wrote: But for the most part it's expensive, unrealistic, extreme, and alienating.
LOL. Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show? :)

On the subject of alienation, the internet forums no better represent raw food people then they represent Buddhists, probably, so the following is a bit of an unfair judgement. I spent time on some raw food forums and I found most of the adherents there to be uber left-wing (that's a lot coming from a Buddhist, you know) paranoid and alarmist.
I've been a vegan for over 15 years and a vegetarian for over 30 years. Raw foodists tend to turn up at many of our events and places. Your assessment of the the internet Raw crowd pretty much fits the real world raw crowd too. I do know some really down to Earth people who are "raw", but they are the minority and I don't really consider them to be raw foodists. The nice ones typically describe themselves in such terms as "50% raw" or "70% raw". In other words, they aren't raw foodists, they are just people who like to eat a lot of salads.
Expensive: In order to get the calories needed on a daily basis from raw foods alone you need to eat a lot of them. $20 to $30 a day is not unusual for raw food.
Often ignored, but a very valid point.
Vegan/vegetarianism is ok - still somewhat extreme for me. But the most moderate bet is Michal Pollan's advice which you indicated above "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants."
Most of the articles Pollan publishes often revolves around him eating politically correct animal products most Americans can't afford. He hardly ever writes about "eating mostly plants" himself. This is a significant point given your criticism about raw foodism being expensive.

On amazon.com organic, grass feed beef goes for $8 a pound. Grass fed steak goes for about $17 a pound. Canned, wild salmon goes for about $30 a pound. I live in a pricey urban area, but I can buy organic whole grains and legumes for about $2 a pound.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by Jhana4 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:35 pm

PeterB wrote:In my absolutist way I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but I rather thought that part of the raw food agenda was the pursuit of alienation.

Certainly those patients I have had referred to me who very early on declare themselves to be raw food devotees are among the most angry people I have ever met. Usually its a good way to worry mum/mom. Its a prolonged revenge for being born.
Interesting thoughts Peter. I was a raw foodist for a year. I was 14 at the time and rebellion was completely what it was about. All in all, I think my parents got a break as I wasn't out wrecking cars and buying illegal drugs.

I've met and talked with many raw foodists over the years. The common theme I've seen between the lines for many of them is that they are looking to have something magic that sets them apart and above from other people.

They tend to be a bit OCD, as a crowd. I also can't agree with you enough that they tend to be angry people, as a group. My theory is that at least part of that is malnutrition. I always remembered feeling remarkably less angry a few weeks after quitting raw foodism.
Last edited by Jhana4 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by PeterB » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:51 pm

Of course its quite possible Jhana4 that I mostly get to see the ones whose alienation has an angry edge...and you are right lots of OCD, fear of embodiment which often takes the form of blood phobia.

meindzai
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:10 pm

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by meindzai » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:02 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
meindzai wrote: But for the most part it's expensive, unrealistic, extreme, and alienating.
LOL. Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show? :)
It actually was pretty fun, believe it or not. Did I mention my raw apple pie? :)

I've been a vegan for over 15 years and a vegetarian for over 30 years. Raw foodists tend to turn up at many of our events and places. Your assessment of the the internet Raw crowd pretty much fits the real world raw crowd too. I do know some really down to Earth people who are "raw", but they are the minority and I don't really consider them to be raw foodists. The nice ones typically describe themselves in such terms as "50% raw" or "70% raw". In other words, they aren't raw foodists, they are just people who like to eat a lot of salads.
Yeah, I remember this distinction as well. I actually had a goal of being 50% raw, though not vegan- I thought this was reasonable. Right now it isn't, but a lot of that is economics.
Jhana4 wrote: Most of the articles Pollan publishes often revolves around him eating politically correct animal products most Americans can't afford. He hardly ever writes about "eating mostly plants" himself. This is a significant point given your criticism about raw foodism being expensive.
Yes, and this is an economic issue and personal issue, one that he's brought up. Our personal choice (my wife and I) is to spend more money on food than most people, (including the family of four we live with) which includes locally grown fruits and vegetables, and meat from a local butcher. That is our groceries and also our health plan, since we do not have benefits.

There is a problem both with the costs of food and what people are willing to spend on it. I've met even poor families who spend the least money per calories they can - so a cart stocked with pasta, rice, boxed foods, etc., but who will still somehow splurge on that video game for their kid. People actually should be spending more money on food, and less money on other things, but there is a problem with priorities and something not quite right with the economics of how it's sold (though I don't propose to know what the problem is exactly or how to fix it.)
On amazon.com organic, grass feed beef goes for $8 a pound. Grass fed steak goes for about $17 a pound. Canned, wild salmon goes for about $30 a pound. I live in a pricey urban area, but I can buy organic whole grains and legumes for about $2 a pound.
I haven't heard Pollan recommend this extreme, though perhaps he has, and perhaps this is the ideal. I've heard him recommend pretty much what we are doing, which is to buy local and organic when possible. We buy from a local butcher and pay about $60 for a bundle which lasts us about two weeks. We buy our vegetables from a farmers market (I try to go a few times a week) and then supplement with stuff from the grocery store. I think we pay about $120 a week for two of us, excluding the occasional meal out. We feel pretty good about our diet because we cook all our food and the local meats are fantastic.

A good friend of mine who is a yoga teacher and vegetarian, very health conscious, but not extreme, made a point about vegetarianism that stuck in my head. He said that it's possible that if you're not vegetarian/vegan, it might just not be in your karma to be so. He didn't mean that in mean way as "you are condemned to eat meat," but for some people it simply doesn't work as well in some particular life or some particular phase of life. The economics seem to bear this out. For myself, I simply cannot get satiated on a vegetarian diet. When I eat vegetarian I am just plain hungry and tired, which causes me to eat a lot more, so the economics don't seem to work in my favor. Not for lack of giving a serious go at it.

I still look to the vegan and raw food community for recipes and ideas, and there is a great raw food restaurant in Tampa that I like. Of course I have to eat again about 2 hours later, but it's great while it lasts.

-M

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by Jhana4 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:03 pm

PeterB wrote:Of course its quite possible Jhana4 that I mostly get to see the ones whose alienation has an angry edge...
I've been a vegan for over 15 years and a vegetarian for over 30 years. I've met and known a number of raw foodists as they turn up at some of our events and some of the places we like to go. The raw foodists you are seeing in your practice are probably the ones who are the healthy enough to go seek counseling. I've met some down to Earth raw foodists, but I don't really consider them to be raw foodists as they don't live that way 100% of the time.

fear of embodiment which often takes the form of blood phobia.
I don't recognize the term, but it sounds interesting. Is it something similar to adolescents who not yet being comfortable with their sexuality have a bit of a fetish for androgynous heart throbs?
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by Jhana4 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:19 pm

meindzai wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:
meindzai wrote: But for the most part it's expensive, unrealistic, extreme, and alienating.
LOL. Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show? :)
It actually was pretty fun, believe it or not. Did I mention my raw apple pie? :)
We have a local vegetarian group that is famous for renting out a hotel ballroom once a year to host a HUGE vegan buffet on Thanksgiving. The org is run by a committee of volunteers, so every year it is a battle between people who just want good food and people who want to enforce some misguided uber extreme health ideal. The menu shifts each year in regards as to who gets listened to the most. One year one of the deserts was "raw apple pie". Baked apples with almost no sweetness dropped on edible cardboard. Lots of leftovers.

There is a problem both with the costs of food and what people are willing to spend on it.
That is a point that it commonly made. People in other countries pay far more for food than Americans do. Personally, I think it is looking at the wrong end of things. I just don't think you will ever get large amounts of people to happily pay more for something they are used to paying much less for. I think one possible remedy is to use the hatred many Americans have for government handouts to get voters to pressure the federal government to end agricultural subsidies to big agro corps. Those subsidies keep the price of the worst foods artificially low. With those subsidies gone the price of produce would become competitive with a lot of the junk on the shelves.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

meindzai
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:10 pm

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by meindzai » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:00 pm

Jhana4 wrote: We have a local vegetarian group that is famous for renting out a hotel ballroom once a year to host a HUGE vegan buffet on Thanksgiving. The org is run by a committee of volunteers, so every year it is a battle between people who just want good food and people who want to enforce some misguided uber extreme health ideal. The menu shifts each year in regards as to who gets listened to the most. One year one of the deserts was "raw apple pie". Baked apples with almost no sweetness dropped on edible cardboard. Lots of leftovers.
Nah, that ain't it at all. It's uncooked apples, soaked in a blend of oranges and cinnamon (oh no, a spice!), in a crust made from soaked hazelnuts and almonds. I throw in some dried (oh no!) cranberries. It's something like that anyway. I never had leftovers! Of course my less than health conscious relatives slathered it with whipped cream, which they do with regular apple pie.

There is a problem both with the costs of food and what people are willing to spend on it.
That is a point that it commonly made. People in other countries pay far more for food than Americans do. Personally, I think it is looking at the wrong end of things. I just don't think you will ever get large amounts of people to happily pay more for something they are used to paying much less for. I think one possible remedy is to use the hatred many Americans have for government handouts to get voters to pressure the federal government to end agricultural subsidies to big agro corps. Those subsidies keep the price of the worst foods artificially low. With those subsidies gone the price of produce would become competitive with a lot of the junk on the shelves.[/quote]

Interesting idea, but I really have no idea which end to approach it from. For us it's a personal choice to spend a bit more and we're happy with it. We also have the option to spend less when we have too, which we like.

-M

VeganLiz
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:14 pm
Location: west coast
Contact:

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by VeganLiz » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:00 pm

I have been considering it. Soy and gluten has been making me sick lately, eating raw might make things easier for me.
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20161
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:26 pm

Greetings,

My wife does the shopping - I don't really have much input into it. Personally I'd be happy with something leaning in this direction, but she's quite fussy over what she eats and she just wouldn't go for it.

Rather than create dukkha on account of this, I just accept it as it is.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by Individual » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:02 pm

Not healthy, and eating raw grains and meat was specifically forbidden by the Buddha.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by Jhana4 » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:59 pm

Kind of sad that rule like that had to be made.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

meindzai
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:10 pm

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by meindzai » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:23 pm

Individual wrote:Not healthy, and eating raw grains and meat was specifically forbidden by the Buddha.
Neither do raw-foodists, who are vegan. They do not eat raw grains except perhaps if they are sprouted, which can be done with brown rice. At that point they are not really "grains" so much as sprouts. Raw grains would be pretty hard on the stomach, so that's not a bad rule at all.

In fact I think the rule about grains doesn't really have much to do with diet per se. It's lumped in their with receiving slaves, pigs, sheep, and women. Grains might be seen as a kind of currency since they can be used for crops.

Anyway :focus:


-M

User avatar
Nibbida
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 3:44 am

Re: Raw Diet?

Post by Nibbida » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:17 pm

PeterB wrote:Usually its a good way to worry mum/mom. Its a prolonged revenge for being born.
This makes sense. Eating disorders, especially anorexia, are part of a spectrum of obsessive-compulsive disorders. Perfectionism, ruminative thinking, and anger are also a part of this spectrum.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16391506
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18555057


A more recently proposed variant of eating disorders is "orthorexia nervosa," which means an obsessive concern with eating "right" foods:

http://www.orthorexia.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests