Veganism: a host of issues.

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budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:30 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:29 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:55 pm
Fake Vegans are Animal Supplementarians, and Real Vegans are dying. Taking an animal product in pill form doesn't make you a vegan.
What's a "fake vegan"? I would have thought that animal products would be listed in the ingredients for supplements, and they would be the ones vegans avoid. Lots of capsules used to be made from gelatine, for example, but here in the UK they couldn't be marketed as vegan.
Your B12 fortified soy milk, where is that b12 coming from?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:36 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:30 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:29 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:55 pm
Fake Vegans are Animal Supplementarians, and Real Vegans are dying. Taking an animal product in pill form doesn't make you a vegan.
What's a "fake vegan"? I would have thought that animal products would be listed in the ingredients for supplements, and they would be the ones vegans avoid. Lots of capsules used to be made from gelatine, for example, but here in the UK they couldn't be marketed as vegan.
Your B12 fortified soy milk, where is that b12 coming from?
They add the B12 during manufacture. Do you mean where do they make it? I believe France and Germany produce the bulk of what is consumed in Europe.

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:40 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:36 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:30 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:29 pm


What's a "fake vegan"? I would have thought that animal products would be listed in the ingredients for supplements, and they would be the ones vegans avoid. Lots of capsules used to be made from gelatine, for example, but here in the UK they couldn't be marketed as vegan.
Your B12 fortified soy milk, where is that b12 coming from?
They add the B12 during manufacture. Do you mean where do they make it? I believe France and Germany produce the bulk of what is consumed in Europe.
No, I mean where is it coming from. Which plant or animal?

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by seeker242 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:42 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:36 pm

They add the B12 during manufacture. Do you mean where do they make it? I believe France and Germany produce the bulk of what is consumed in Europe.
Originally, it comes from fermentation of bacteria, neither plant nor animal. They stopped making it from animals back in the 1960's :)

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Sam Vara
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Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:44 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:40 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:36 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:30 pm


Your B12 fortified soy milk, where is that b12 coming from?
They add the B12 during manufacture. Do you mean where do they make it? I believe France and Germany produce the bulk of what is consumed in Europe.
No, I mean where is it coming from. Which plant or animal?
Cyanocobalamin. Synthesised from bacteria in labs.

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:48 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:44 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:40 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:36 pm


They add the B12 during manufacture. Do you mean where do they make it? I believe France and Germany produce the bulk of what is consumed in Europe.
No, I mean where is it coming from. Which plant or animal?
Cyanocobalamin. Synthesised from bacteria in labs.
Ok that's also how K2-MK7 is formed like in Nato (japanese beans). It is still considered an animal source.

Basically the only way they can make animal form vitamins (B12, and k2) without actual animals, is through bacteria. As far as I'm aware, it's only available for K2 and B12.

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Sam Vara
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Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:53 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:48 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:44 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:40 pm


No, I mean where is it coming from. Which plant or animal?
Cyanocobalamin. Synthesised from bacteria in labs.
Ok that's also how K2-MK7 is formed like in Nato (japanese beans). It is still considered an animal source.

Basically the only way they can make animal form vitamins (B12, and k2) without actual animals, is through bacteria. As far as I'm aware, it's only available for K2 and B12.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. No animals are involved in the production of the B12 used to fortify vegan foods or in supplements for vegans. All B12 is bacterial in origin; if you get if from meat or eggs, etc, it's because the animals store it after the bacteria make it.

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:58 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:53 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:48 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:44 pm


Cyanocobalamin. Synthesised from bacteria in labs.
Ok that's also how K2-MK7 is formed like in Nato (japanese beans). It is still considered an animal source.

Basically the only way they can make animal form vitamins (B12, and k2) without actual animals, is through bacteria. As far as I'm aware, it's only available for K2 and B12.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. No animals are involved in the production of the B12 used to fortify vegan foods or in supplements for vegans. All B12 is bacterial in origin; if you get if from meat or eggs, etc, it's because the animals store it after the bacteria make it.
I'm not saying that it comes from animals, I'm saying it's animal form.

All vitamins have plant form and vitamin form for example Vitamin A: beta-carotene vs retinol. K1 vs K2, etc.. even though K2-MK7 is made from bacteria, it's still considered Animal form..

Humans typically absorb animal form much better, for example beta-carotene is converted to Retinol (animal form) in humans, but not all humans can convert it and if you have damaged gut, even less so.

Same thing goes for D2 vs D3.
Last edited by budo on Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by seeker242 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:58 pm

Bacteria is the only way B12 is ever produced and has always been that way, regardless if animals are involved or not. Animal gut bacteria is what produces it, not the animal themselves. But, only when the animal's diet contains sufficient amounts of cobalt. When it does not, which is often the case, the farmers give the animals...B12 supplements. So, there is a pretty good chance that the B12 in the meat, depending on where it comes from, comes from a supplement.

The "animal form" of B12 is Methylcobalamin, which can also be made in a lab.

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Sam Vara
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Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:02 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:58 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:53 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:48 pm


Ok that's also how K2-MK7 is formed like in Nato (japanese beans). It is still considered an animal source.

Basically the only way they can make animal form vitamins (B12, and k2) without actual animals, is through bacteria. As far as I'm aware, it's only available for K2 and B12.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. No animals are involved in the production of the B12 used to fortify vegan foods or in supplements for vegans. All B12 is bacterial in origin; if you get if from meat or eggs, etc, it's because the animals store it after the bacteria make it.
I'm not saying that it comes from animals, I'm saying it's animal form.

All vitamins have plant form and vitamin form for example Vitamin A: beta-carotene vs retinol. K1 vs K2, etc.. even though K2-MK7 is made from bacteria, it's still considered Animal form..

Humans typically absorb animal form much better, for example beta-carotene is converted to Retinol (animal form) in humans, but not all humans can convert it and if you have damaged gut, even less so.

Same thing goes for D2 vs D3.
What is "animal form"? Vitamin B12 cannot be produced by animals, and does not have the form of animals. "And what, Bhikkhus, is form?"

EDIT: I've just seen Seeker242's answer. If Budo means methylcobalamin, then Seeker242 is absolutely right. All cobalamin is, as I said above, bacterial. And what we get in supplements is not methyl-, but cyanocobalamin.
Last edited by Sam Vara on Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:04 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:02 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:58 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:53 pm


I'm not sure what you are saying here. No animals are involved in the production of the B12 used to fortify vegan foods or in supplements for vegans. All B12 is bacterial in origin; if you get if from meat or eggs, etc, it's because the animals store it after the bacteria make it.
I'm not saying that it comes from animals, I'm saying it's animal form.

All vitamins have plant form and vitamin form for example Vitamin A: beta-carotene vs retinol. K1 vs K2, etc.. even though K2-MK7 is made from bacteria, it's still considered Animal form..

Humans typically absorb animal form much better, for example beta-carotene is converted to Retinol (animal form) in humans, but not all humans can convert it and if you have damaged gut, even less so.

Same thing goes for D2 vs D3.
What is "animal form"? Vitamin B12 cannot be produced by animals, and does not have the form of animals. "And what, Bhikkhus, is form?"
There's a reason you're not consuming B12 from algae and seaweed, but from bacteria. Bacteria is the "loop hole" scientists use to produce Animal form vitamins in a lab without animals, but this cannot be done for all nutrients, at least not yet.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:07 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:04 pm

There's a reason you're not consuming B12 from algae and seaweed, but from bacteria. Bacteria is the "loop hole" scientists use to produce Animal form vitamins in a lab without animals, but this cannot be done for all nutrients, at least not yet.
It's also the reason why veganism has only become possible in the last few decades. Marvellous, isn't it? The wonders of science... :)

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:09 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:07 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:04 pm

There's a reason you're not consuming B12 from algae and seaweed, but from bacteria. Bacteria is the "loop hole" scientists use to produce Animal form vitamins in a lab without animals, but this cannot be done for all nutrients, at least not yet.
It's also the reason why veganism has only become possible in the last few decades. Marvellous, isn't it? The wonders of science... :)
Which is also a reason why it's an experimental diet and you're a guinea pig going against millions of years in evolution :)

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Sam Vara
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Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:31 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:09 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:07 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:04 pm

There's a reason you're not consuming B12 from algae and seaweed, but from bacteria. Bacteria is the "loop hole" scientists use to produce Animal form vitamins in a lab without animals, but this cannot be done for all nutrients, at least not yet.
It's also the reason why veganism has only become possible in the last few decades. Marvellous, isn't it? The wonders of science... :)
Which is also a reason why it's an experimental diet and you're a guinea pig going against millions of years in evolution :)
Fond as I am of guinea pigs, what does "going against evolution" mean?

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:56 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:31 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:09 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:07 pm


It's also the reason why veganism has only become possible in the last few decades. Marvellous, isn't it? The wonders of science... :)
Which is also a reason why it's an experimental diet and you're a guinea pig going against millions of years in evolution :)
Fond as I am of guinea pigs, what does "going against evolution" mean?
See the first page of this thread with the review study on "Man the fat hunter"

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