Veganism: a host of issues.

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budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:49 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:19 am
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:41 am
Ven Dhammavuddho on how when he was a Vegetarian in Mahayana, and it ruined his gut:



He talks about this also in his other interviews about his life as a Mahayana monk.
Anyone bothering to view this video will find that this is not what Venerable Dhammavuddho says, and will also struggle to see how the medical history of one monastic is relevant to the question of veganism. There are monks who have been vegetarian and vegan for a long time without ill effects. See my point above about views in search of evidence.
He does say he regrets being Vegetarian, if not in this video then in his many other videos when asked about being Vegetarian. He eats meat now.

He says: "Eating one meal a day, combined with a vegetarian meal, and combined with drinking tea, got me my gastric problems

So he dropped vegetarianism.
Last edited by budo on Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:12 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:11 am

Aloka wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:24 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:19 am

Anyone bothering to view this video will find that this is not what Venerable Dhammavuddho says, and will also struggle to see how the medical history of one monastic is relevant to the question of veganism. There are monks who have been vegetarian and vegan for a long time without ill effects. See my point above about views in search of evidence.
:goodpost: Monks often don't have any choice about what they eat either, they have to eat what's offered to them.


.
You probably know Ajahn Vajiro? He has been vegan for many years, and told me when he was at Amaravati that the lay people preparing food for him were aware of this and so didn't offer him meat or dairy. So his diet was if anything more restricted than the average monastic's. He said that this had never caused him any health problems, and he always seemed to me to have plenty of vitality!

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by seeker242 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:11 am

Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/
"It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes."

Dietitians of Canada https://www.dietitians.ca/Downloads/Fac ... egans.aspx
"A healthy vegan diet can meet all your nutrient needs at any stage of life including when you are pregnant, breastfeeding or for older adults."

The British National Health Service http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhe ... diets.aspx
"With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs."

The British Nutrition Foundation https://www.nutrition.org.uk/bnf-public ... -nutrition
A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ...

The Dietitians Association of Australia https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you ... derations/
Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With good planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider.*

The National Health and Medical Research Council https://nhmrc.gov.au/about-us/publicati ... guidelines
Appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthy and nutritionally adequate. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle. Those following a strict vegetarian or vegan diet can meet nutrient requirements as long as energy needs are met and an appropriate variety of plant foods are eaten throughout the day*

Harvard Medical School http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-h ... vegetarian
Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.

But, the tabloid magazines and some guy with a blog said it's unhealthy. Therefore, the largest organizations of nutrition professionals in the world must not know what they are talking about. Sounds reasonable. :lol:

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:14 am

Government associations always change, and with the way things going with baby deaths, soon feeding babies a vegan diet will result in jail time.

Belgium is considering making it illegal:

Making your kids go vegan can mean jail time in Belgium

May 18, 2019
As draconian as that sounds, there are some grounds for the new legal opinion, Belgian experts argue. Bernard Devos, a regional government official responsible for children’s rights and protection in Brussels and the French-speaking region of Wallonia, requested a ruling on veganism’s health effects on kids after a number of deaths in schools, nurseries, and hospitals believed to be linked to the diet. The ruling will make it easier for officials to take legal action against parents in cases where poor health is associated with a vegan diet.
https://qz.com/1622642/making-your-kids ... n-belgium/

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by seeker242 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:18 am

Yes, there are definitely a lot of ignorant people there in Belgium I agree. Feeding your kid a malnourished diet is already illegal most everywhere.

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:20 am

seeker242 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:18 am
Yes, there are definitely a lot of ignorant people there in Belgium I agree.
Unfortunately for you, sane people prefer protecting human lives over animal lives.

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by seeker242 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:22 am

budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:20 am
seeker242 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:18 am
Yes, there are definitely a lot of ignorant people there in Belgium I agree.
Unfortunately for you, sane people prefer protecting human lives over animal lives.
And if you actually read the article you posted, instead of just the headline, you will see it does not outlaw veganism. What it does is force stupid people to do it properly.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:23 am

budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:49 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:19 am
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:41 am
Ven Dhammavuddho on how when he was a Vegetarian in Mahayana, and it ruined his gut:



He talks about this also in his other interviews about his life as a Mahayana monk.
Anyone bothering to view this video will find that this is not what Venerable Dhammavuddho says, and will also struggle to see how the medical history of one monastic is relevant to the question of veganism. There are monks who have been vegetarian and vegan for a long time without ill effects. See my point above about views in search of evidence.
He does say he regrets being Vegetarian, if not in this video then in his many other videos when asked about being Vegetarian. He eats meat now.

He says: "Eating one meal a day, combined with a vegetarian meal, and combined with drinking tea, got me my gastric problems

So he dropped vegetarianism.
So, even if we accept his self-diagnosis as accurate (I've no doubt it is sincere!) we are to assume that it was the vegetarianism which was the problem? And we are to extrapolate from this that there are issues with veganism? This is a classic instance of what I referred to above. The case of one man eating a vegetarian meal once a day (what sort of vegetarian meal?) and drinking tea, and attributing gastric pain to that combination, has no bearing on the question I raised. As I said, I could find many examples on the internet of people eating meat and falling ill. But that has in itself absolutely no bearing on the health benefits of eating meat, does it? That's what I mean by being disappointed with the quality of the evidence.

EDIT: Please note Seeker242's point about you apparently not reading or understanding the source which you cite. It's exactly what I am saying. You don't seem to have read any of them. Your approach seems to be like the old Soviet tank warfare strategy: "Most of our tanks are ancient and sub-standard, but we've got a limitless supply of them and can keep them coming at you as fast as you can knock them out!".
Last edited by Sam Vara on Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:24 am

seeker242 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:22 am
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:20 am
seeker242 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:18 am
Yes, there are definitely a lot of ignorant people there in Belgium I agree.
Unfortunately for you, sane people prefer protecting human lives over animal lives.
And if you actually read the article you posted, instead of just the headline, you will see it does not outlaw veganism. What it does is force stupid people to do it properly.
I read it. Turns out, making an unnatural chemical and supplement based experimental diet that goes against our evolution, to be done "properly" is a hard task for many people.

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by seeker242 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:30 am

budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:24 am

I read it. Turns out, making an unnatural chemical and supplement based experimental diet that goes against our evolution, to be done "properly" is a hard task for many people.
And an easy task for many as well. But yea, if your IQ is 82, you probably shouldn't feed your kid vegan without professional help. As far as it being natural or unnatural, well that's just plain irrelevant.

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:34 am

seeker242 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:30 am
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:24 am

I read it. Turns out, making an unnatural chemical and supplement based experimental diet that goes against our evolution, to be done "properly" is a hard task for many people.
And an easy task for many as well. But yea, if your IQ is 82, you probably shouldn't feed your kid vegan without professional help. As far as it being natural or unnatural, well that's just plain irrelevant.
I'd say you'd have to have even lower IQ to attempt such a task in the first place :lol:

You shouldn't feed your kids vegan period.

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by seeker242 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:39 am

budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:34 am
seeker242 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:30 am
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:24 am

I read it. Turns out, making an unnatural chemical and supplement based experimental diet that goes against our evolution, to be done "properly" is a hard task for many people.
And an easy task for many as well. But yea, if your IQ is 82, you probably shouldn't feed your kid vegan without professional help. As far as it being natural or unnatural, well that's just plain irrelevant.
I'd say you'd have to have even lower IQ to attempt such a task in the first place :lol:

You shouldn't feed your kids vegan period.
Or, you just care about not murdering sentient beings. To only care about yourself, and not others is the very definition of selfishness. It's perfectly appropriate to feed kids vegan.

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:40 am

seeker242 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:39 am
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:34 am
seeker242 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:30 am


And an easy task for many as well. But yea, if your IQ is 82, you probably shouldn't feed your kid vegan without professional help. As far as it being natural or unnatural, well that's just plain irrelevant.
I'd say you'd have to have even lower IQ to attempt such a task in the first place :lol:

You shouldn't feed your kids vegan period.
Or, you just care about not murdering sentient beings. To only care about yourself, and not others is the very definition of selfishness. It's perfectly appropriate for feed kids vegan.
Then you shouldn't leave your house if buying meat is murder. Just your existence is killing many beings, just using water and electricity and using your car.

To only care about yourself is to be enlightened, unless you are a Mahayanist who wants to enlighten people without being enlightened yourself first, which is impossible.

Besides, why bring kids into this world if you care about not murdering other beings? You know their existence will result in that. Isn't that selfish to bring kids into this world according to your logic?

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:47 am

If you want to be suicidal to save the world, that's your own agenda, but what I don't get is why these suicidal people bring kids into this world knowing that that they will harm the environment and other beings just by taking up resources in order to exist. Very hypocritical.

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by seeker242 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:52 am

budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:40 am
seeker242 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:39 am
budo wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:34 am


I'd say you'd have to have even lower IQ to attempt such a task in the first place :lol:

You shouldn't feed your kids vegan period.
Or, you just care about not murdering sentient beings. To only care about yourself, and not others is the very definition of selfishness. It's perfectly appropriate for feed kids vegan.
Then you shouldn't leave your house if buying meat is murder. Just your existence is killing many beings, just using water and electricity and using your car.
And that's what you call being unreasonable. Specifically, the Nirvana fallacy, no pun intended.
Nirvana fallacy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The nirvana fallacy is the informal fallacy of comparing actual things with unrealistic, idealized alternatives.[1] It can also refer to the tendency to assume that there is a perfect solution to a particular problem. A closely related concept is the perfect solution fallacy.

By creating a false dichotomy that presents one option which is obviously advantageous—while at the same time being completely implausible—a person using the nirvana fallacy can attack any opposing idea because it is imperfect. Under this fallacy, the choice is not between real world solutions; it is, rather, a choice between one realistic achievable possibility and another unrealistic solution that could in some way be "better".
To only care about yourself is to be enlightened
Nonsense. Tathagata has sympathy for living beings.
Besides, why bring kids into this world if you care about not murdering other beings? You know their existence will result in that. Isn't that selfish to bring kids into this world according to your logic?
Many vegans are also anti-natalism for a similar reasons.

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