Veganism: a host of issues.

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budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo »

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:39 pm
budo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:36 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:31 pm


No, I don't say anything of the sort; the exact opposite, in fact. I don't worry about my diet all that much, precisely because I seem to be much healthier than other people my age.
Sure, you're still healthier than the Standard American (aka 70% Sugar, 30% vegetable oils) Diet, anything is healthier than SAD. Comparing yourself to sicker people who are average, doesn't make you healthy though.

And how many supplements are you taking a day?
What does make one "healthy" then? I suspect this is going to come down to definitional fiat, isn't it?

Most days, I don't take any supplements at all.
So the last time you put an animal product in your mouth was 1984 and have been strictly vegan without any cheating since then?

Well there is health span and life span. It is a medical definition https://www.jax.org/news-and-insights/2 ... healthspan

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Idappaccayata
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Idappaccayata »

budo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:22 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:31 pm
From another thread in this section:
Veganism (or better termed Supplementarians) have a whole host of issues, but that's another topic for another thread.
I was just wondering what those issues are. Health issues? Psychological issues?

Here's the new thread, anyway...
This is a huge rabbit hole that gets very deep, but to start, a lot of dying babies, and it's getting much worse, the frequency of baby deaths is increasing.

- https://calgaryherald.com/news/crime/pa ... f52c6f37c6
- https://www.thelocal.se/20190523/swedis ... egan-child
- https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... d=12204479
- https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9098511/v ... d-belgium/

I've seen pictures of vegans having babies who cannot grow teeth, whereas these vegans were raised on meat thus allowing them to develop properly. The first signs of disease is poor vision, poor skin, and poor dental health, so if you're wearing glasses and have cavities, you're not healthy according to nature.


- Then you have low fat diets, which doesn't solve insulin caused diseases
- Your body needs cholesterol to utilize vitamin D3 and other fat soluble vitamins like Retinol (which is not the same as beta-carotene), k2 (which is not the same as K1), and CoQ10.
- Aside from olive oil, avocados, and maybe coconut oil, plant fats are high in omega 6 which is inflammatory.
- Nuts, seeds and grains, are high in anti-nutrients, like phytic acid which causes cavities. The Egyptians were one of the first cultures to eat Wheat and had terrible cavities, whereas the Eskimos and inuit had perfect teeth and facial development due to high fat diet with a lot of fat soluble vitamins.
- Low fat diet -> poor facial development -> mouth breathing -> low oxygen and increased co2 -> higher inflammation and disease, and also poor sleep, sleep apnea, etc..
- So if they're low protein, low fat, and high carb, they're in for trouble eventually, and as I said, they weren't raised like that otherwise they wouldn't be able to grow teeth as kids.

And there's a lot more.. I can write a book about this, I was a vegan once myself many years ago, and my health deteriorated which lead to research, then I went full carnivore for a few years and my digestion, sleep, eye sight (used to be -7 and now at -3) improved, teeth improved.. I try to be as carnivore as I can be in general, but I do cheat a lot.

In short, if it's not good for a baby, it's not good for you!
I could be wrong, but you seem to be hinting at an ideology that is just as harmful as veganism - ie the carnivore diet. There are a few fringe "doctors" advocating it, but no one credible. Aside from common sense, there is a lack of research.

It doesn't take a scientist to recognize that there are certain micro nutrients you can only get from plants.
Not to mention fiber.

I don't doubt you felt better, many people do. That's because you went on an elimination diet. The same reason people on a fast-food diet drink a few kale smoothies and think veganism is the answer.

Meat is good, fat is good, vegetables are good. A small amount of certain grains are good. Don't fall into the opposite extreme of veganism.

Your fear of nuts is also based on bad science. Someone who knows the folly of ancel keys should know this.
A dying man can only rely upon his wisdom, if he developed it. Wisdom is not dependent upon any phenomenon originated upon six senses. It is developed on the basis of the discernment of the same. That’s why when one’s senses start to wither and die, the knowledge of their nature remains unaffected. When there is no wisdom, there will be despair, in the face of death.

- Ajahn Nyanamoli Thero

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Antaradhana
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Antaradhana »

This thread threatens to become endless :) Food is just a collection of elements.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Sam Vara
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara »

budo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:41 pm

So the last time you put an animal product in your mouth was 1984 and have been strictly vegan without any cheating since then?

Well there is health span and life span. It is a medical definition https://www.jax.org/news-and-insights/2 ... healthspan
Yes, vegan since 1984, when I stopped being a dairy herdsman because I had formed the opinion that milk and egg production was unethical. Since then I might have ingested tiny amounts of animal product inadvertently, and on one occasion In the 1990s I ate an egg given to me by a friend who had a pet hen, which I deemed ethically acceptable. Tasted nasty, though, so never repeated.

What I got from the video and text is that lifespan is staying alive, and healthspan is about avoiding illnesses when ageing. I've done both, which seems to confirm my view that in general I am healthy.

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo »

Idappaccayata wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:54 pm
budo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:22 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:31 pm
From another thread in this section:



I was just wondering what those issues are. Health issues? Psychological issues?

Here's the new thread, anyway...
This is a huge rabbit hole that gets very deep, but to start, a lot of dying babies, and it's getting much worse, the frequency of baby deaths is increasing.

- https://calgaryherald.com/news/crime/pa ... f52c6f37c6
- https://www.thelocal.se/20190523/swedis ... egan-child
- https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... d=12204479
- https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9098511/v ... d-belgium/

I've seen pictures of vegans having babies who cannot grow teeth, whereas these vegans were raised on meat thus allowing them to develop properly. The first signs of disease is poor vision, poor skin, and poor dental health, so if you're wearing glasses and have cavities, you're not healthy according to nature.


- Then you have low fat diets, which doesn't solve insulin caused diseases
- Your body needs cholesterol to utilize vitamin D3 and other fat soluble vitamins like Retinol (which is not the same as beta-carotene), k2 (which is not the same as K1), and CoQ10.
- Aside from olive oil, avocados, and maybe coconut oil, plant fats are high in omega 6 which is inflammatory.
- Nuts, seeds and grains, are high in anti-nutrients, like phytic acid which causes cavities. The Egyptians were one of the first cultures to eat Wheat and had terrible cavities, whereas the Eskimos and inuit had perfect teeth and facial development due to high fat diet with a lot of fat soluble vitamins.
- Low fat diet -> poor facial development -> mouth breathing -> low oxygen and increased co2 -> higher inflammation and disease, and also poor sleep, sleep apnea, etc..
- So if they're low protein, low fat, and high carb, they're in for trouble eventually, and as I said, they weren't raised like that otherwise they wouldn't be able to grow teeth as kids.

And there's a lot more.. I can write a book about this, I was a vegan once myself many years ago, and my health deteriorated which lead to research, then I went full carnivore for a few years and my digestion, sleep, eye sight (used to be -7 and now at -3) improved, teeth improved.. I try to be as carnivore as I can be in general, but I do cheat a lot.

In short, if it's not good for a baby, it's not good for you!
I could be wrong, but you seem to be hinting at an ideology that is just as harmful as veganism - ie the carnivore diet. There are a few fringe "doctors" advocating it, but no one credible. Aside from common sense, there is a lack of research.

It doesn't take a scientist to recognize that there are certain micro nutrients you can only get from plants.
Not to mention fiber.

I don't doubt you felt better, many people do. That's because you went on an elimination diet. The same reason people on a fast-food diet drink a few kale smoothies and think veganism is the answer.

Meat is good, fat is good, vegetables are good. A small amount of certain grains are good. Don't fall into the opposite extreme of veganism.

Your fear of nuts is also based on bad science. Someone who knows the folly of ancel keys should know this.
Fear of nuts? Please stop projecting emotions onto others. It's a sign of bad faith argumentation.

I ate a lot of nuts for years, and tested every variation I could. You would be suprised how fast they go rancid, especially walnuts. All PUFA are unstable, that's why it's best to get them fresh from fish, whose skin protects the PUFA from UV damage, and the ocean with cold temperatures.

In the end, they're not necessary and weren't given me much benefit, and more of a hassle with the rancidity, fiber, and anti nutrients, so I stopped buying them, doesn't mean I "fear" them.

There's nothing wrong with eating carnivore, especially since after going carnivore for a while, one starts eating less in general and intermittent fasting becomes easier to do, which imho is the real health advantage.

I also see nothing wrong with a keto based vegetarian approach, which is way healthier than a low fat diet.
It doesn't take a scientist to recognize that there are certain micro nutrients you can only get from plants.
Not to mention fiber.
Then name that essential nutrient. Fiber isn't one.
Last edited by budo on Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo »

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:00 pm
budo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:41 pm

So the last time you put an animal product in your mouth was 1984 and have been strictly vegan without any cheating since then?

Well there is health span and life span. It is a medical definition https://www.jax.org/news-and-insights/2 ... healthspan
Yes, vegan since 1984, when I stopped being a dairy herdsman because I had formed the opinion that milk and egg production was unethical. Since then I might have ingested tiny amounts of animal product inadvertently, and on one occasion In the 1990s I ate an egg given to me by a friend who had a pet hen, which I deemed ethically acceptable. Tasted nasty, though, so never repeated.

What I got from the video and text is that lifespan is staying alive, and healthspan is about avoiding illnesses when ageing. I've done both, which seems to confirm my view that in general I am healthy.
Well I have no idea what your diet composition is like so I can't say. Keep in mind though, if you depend on olives, coconuts and avocados all year long for fats, those items need to be shipped from other countries and are not local to the area like say a sheep or chicken is.

If you depend on fruits all year long, that's also not local and seasonal, and must also be shipped.

I would say you could survive for a very long time on potatoes, carrots and eggs, as you would get the minimum basic nutrients with minimal anti nutrients, and it would be local and nearly all year long, but vegans don't eat eggs. This would also be only miminal for survival and not optimal.

Also I can't say how healthy you are other than what you've written, usually bad teeth leads to bad heart. So I would do a full check up every year with your doctor. You can't just go on appearances and feelings alone as things slowly boil underneath.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara »

budo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:59 am

Well I have no idea what your diet composition is like so I can't say. Keep in mind though, if you depend on olives, coconuts and avocados all year long for fats, those items need to be shipped from other countries and are not local to the area like say a sheep or chicken is.

If you depend on fruits all year long, that's also not local and seasonal, and must also be shipped.

I would say you could survive for a very long time on potatoes, carrots and eggs, as you would get the minimum basic nutrients with minimal anti nutrients, and it would be local and nearly all year long, but vegans don't eat eggs. This would also be only miminal for survival and not optimal.

Also I can't say how healthy you are other than what you've written, usually bad teeth leads to bad heart. So I would do a full check up every year with your doctor. You can't just go on appearances and feelings alone as things slowly boil underneath.
Well, there do seem to be a large number of issues associated with veganism, as there are with anything that people formulate views around. As I said earlier, an interesting one for me is how annoyingly proselytising and holier-than-thou some vegans can be. In my case, however, none of the issues seem remotely likely to change my dietary habits. They would have to be exceptionally cogent in order for me to question my own manifest health and vitality, and nothing I have read here comes close to that standard.

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo »

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:23 am
budo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:59 am

Well I have no idea what your diet composition is like so I can't say. Keep in mind though, if you depend on olives, coconuts and avocados all year long for fats, those items need to be shipped from other countries and are not local to the area like say a sheep or chicken is.

If you depend on fruits all year long, that's also not local and seasonal, and must also be shipped.

I would say you could survive for a very long time on potatoes, carrots and eggs, as you would get the minimum basic nutrients with minimal anti nutrients, and it would be local and nearly all year long, but vegans don't eat eggs. This would also be only miminal for survival and not optimal.

Also I can't say how healthy you are other than what you've written, usually bad teeth leads to bad heart. So I would do a full check up every year with your doctor. You can't just go on appearances and feelings alone as things slowly boil underneath.
Well, there do seem to be a large number of issues associated with veganism, as there are with anything that people formulate views around. As I said earlier, an interesting one for me is how annoyingly proselytising and holier-than-thou some vegans can be. In my case, however, none of the issues seem remotely likely to change my dietary habits. They would have to be exceptionally cogent in order for me to question my own manifest health and vitality, and nothing I have read here comes close to that standard.
I don't know how old you are, and how often you take b12, but you saying you rarely take supplements raises suspicions, as even the vegan society says you should take B12 https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/ ... itamin-b12

Did you raise your kids on a vegan diet?

Either way, we'll see what happens in the long run. And like I said, you can't judge health on feelings and appearances alone. One can get used to having low energy without knowing better their whole life, and may assume that it is the default mode of living, until they know better. So feelings and appearances are typically subjective.

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by seeker242 »

I've been vegan for over 25 years and every annual checkup with Dr, I'm perfectly healthy in every respect. :)

Dr. Ellsworth Wareham, vegan for over 50 years, recently passed away at age 104. Guy was still out mowing his lawn at age 100. :rofl: Not exactly a "host of issues". :)


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Sam Vara
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara »

budo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:30 am

I don't know how old you are, and how often you take b12, but you saying you rarely take supplements raises suspicions, as even the vegan society says you should take B12 https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/ ... itamin-b12
I'm 62. Lots of the foods I eat contains B12 (soya milk, oat milk, veggie-burgers, some cereals, etc.) so normally I don't bother with supplements. It's added at the factory.
Did you raise your kids on a vegan diet?
No, my reasons for being vegan are ethical, so that's for them to decide for themselves when they can make an informed choice. My oldest child is now adult, and he is happily omnivorous. The two little ones will eat anything, and their mum cooks some meat for them although she is mainly vegetarian. The cat and dog also choose for themselves!
Either way, we'll see what happens in the long run.
Yes, that applies to us all. As the economist Keynes famously said, "In the long run we are all dead!"
And like I said, you can't judge health on feelings and appearances alone. One can get used to having low energy without knowing better their whole life, and may assume that it is the default mode of living, until they know better. So feelings and appearances are typically subjective.
Feelings are subjective by definition, but appearances are inter-subjective. (I don't care what I look like, but people usually say I look younger than I am. It's often amusing when people assume that my wife is my daughter and that our children are my grandchildren, but very few make that mistake.) And of course, feelings and appearances can be supported by performance. I was a martial arts instructor for many years, and very few people could keep up with my training. And I keep active now, more so than others my age.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara »

seeker242 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:07 pm
I've been vegan for over 25 years and every annual checkup with Dr, I'm perfectly healthy in every respect. :)
Same here, except that it's 35 years, and (because I don't pay for health care) I have hardly ever needed to see a doctor. I don't proselytise for veganism, but as far as I'm concerned it's perfectly viable. There are, of course, "issues" if you look for them, but none affect me.

Glad to hear you're doing well! :thumbsup:

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo »

Joe Andersen and his wife have been eating only ribeye steaks for 20 years, he's also 60



and a picture of his wife

If twitter isn't loading up for you: link 1 - and link 2

There are many people who have been eating carnivore for even longer periods, which you can read interviews at www.zerocarbzen.com

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by seeker242 »

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:14 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:07 pm
I've been vegan for over 25 years and every annual checkup with Dr, I'm perfectly healthy in every respect. :)
Same here, except that it's 35 years, and (because I don't pay for health care) I have hardly ever needed to see a doctor. I don't proselytise for veganism, but as far as I'm concerned it's perfectly viable. There are, of course, "issues" if you look for them, but none affect me.

Glad to hear you're doing well! :thumbsup:
Thanks! Ditto! The only time I actually had to go to the doctor was some broken bones in a skiing accident. I get mildly sick maybe 1-2 times per decade. :lol: My girlfriend is vegetarian since birth, and vegan about 10 years now. Never eaten meat, ever. No issues either. It's definitely perfectly viable. :twothumbsup:

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Sam Vara
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara »

budo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:30 pm
Joe Andersen and his wife have been eating only ribeye steaks for 20 years, he's also 60



and a picture of his wife

If twitter isn't loading up for you: link 1 - and link 2

There are many people who have been eating carnivore for even longer periods, which you can read interviews at www.zerocarbzen.com
Here's another beautiful sexy life-long carnivore. Her husband eats nothing but meat too.

Image


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