Veganism: a host of issues.

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Sam Vara
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Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:31 pm

From another thread in this section:
Veganism (or better termed Supplementarians) have a whole host of issues, but that's another topic for another thread.
I was just wondering what those issues are. Health issues? Psychological issues?

Here's the new thread, anyway...

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:22 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:31 pm
From another thread in this section:
Veganism (or better termed Supplementarians) have a whole host of issues, but that's another topic for another thread.
I was just wondering what those issues are. Health issues? Psychological issues?

Here's the new thread, anyway...
This is a huge rabbit hole that gets very deep, but to start, a lot of dying babies, and it's getting much worse, the frequency of baby deaths is increasing.

- https://calgaryherald.com/news/crime/pa ... f52c6f37c6
- https://www.thelocal.se/20190523/swedis ... egan-child
- https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... d=12204479
- https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9098511/v ... d-belgium/

I've seen pictures of vegans having babies who cannot grow teeth, whereas these vegans were raised on meat thus allowing them to develop properly. The first signs of disease is poor vision, poor skin, and poor dental health, so if you're wearing glasses and have cavities, you're not healthy according to nature.


- Then you have low fat diets, which doesn't solve insulin caused diseases
- Your body needs cholesterol to utilize vitamin D3 and other fat soluble vitamins like Retinol (which is not the same as beta-carotene), k2 (which is not the same as K1), and CoQ10.
- Aside from olive oil, avocados, and maybe coconut oil, plant fats are high in omega 6 which is inflammatory.
- Nuts, seeds and grains, are high in anti-nutrients, like phytic acid which causes cavities. The Egyptians were one of the first cultures to eat Wheat and had terrible cavities, whereas the Eskimos and inuit had perfect teeth and facial development due to high fat diet with a lot of fat soluble vitamins.
- Low fat diet -> poor facial development -> mouth breathing -> low oxygen and increased co2 -> higher inflammation and disease, and also poor sleep, sleep apnea, etc..
- So if they're low protein, low fat, and high carb, they're in for trouble eventually, and as I said, they weren't raised like that otherwise they wouldn't be able to grow teeth as kids.

And there's a lot more.. I can write a book about this, I was a vegan once myself many years ago, and my health deteriorated which lead to research, then I went full carnivore for a few years and my digestion, sleep, eye sight (used to be -7 and now at -3) improved, teeth improved.. I try to be as carnivore as I can be in general, but I do cheat a lot.

In short, if it's not good for a baby, it's not good for you!

dharmacorps
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by dharmacorps » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:32 pm

The most substantial one is B12. Vegans who don't take a b12 supplement could have substantial problems from b12 deficiency.

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seeker242
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by seeker242 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:34 pm

What is bad for babies, is being an idiot and not feeding the child a proper vegan diet. Nearly every example, if not every one, of a baby dying can be traced back to the idiocracy, or just plain ignorance of the parents.
It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/
What is bad for babies is stupid parents.

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:36 pm

There used to be a site that documented all the baby deaths, but it was taken down by the host provider recently.

Here's some recent ones I had in my history

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -grid.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-new ... l-16191232

https://www.newsweek.com/vegan-parents- ... nt-1420877

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:43 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:32 pm
The most substantial one is B12. Vegans who don't take a b12 supplement could have substantial problems from b12 deficiency.
That's just scratching the surface.

Our brains grew due to fat consumption.

We're actually fat hunters, ""Man the Fat Hunter: The Demise of Homo erectus and the Emergence of a New Hominin Lineage in the Middle Pleistocene"": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3235142/

Our brains are now shrinking because of low fat diets.

We also preferred raw meat, and we cooked vegetables to get rid of anti-nutrients and cellulose to make them more digestible.

Alexander Ugolev, a famous Russian scientist who devoted his life to studying human digestive physiology, conducted an interesting experiment using two dead frogs: one cooked and one raw. He placed each into a beaker filled with a carnivore’s stomach acid (principally hydrochloric acid, HCl) and recorded the results. The raw frog was completely dissolved, while the cooked frog underwent only a moderate surface change and remained largely intact.

The way most of us have conceived the digestive process since junior high school “health” classes is something like this: Food goes in…body’s acidic gastric juices go to work…juices break down food…body absorbs the good stuff, expels the bad stuff. Implicit here is the notion that food itself is passive in all this, that food gets digested, but doesn’t itself do anything.

Ugolev showed that (apart from the most obvious mode of digestion via our own digestive enzymes) there is also a process of self-digestion of food-“autolysis” is the technical term-carried out by enzymes within the food itself. Here’s the key: While ordinary digestion takes place no matter what we put into our mouths, autolysis happens only when the food we consume is raw.

We do not digest by gastric juices alone. Every living cell is equipped to self-destruct when the conditions for that process are met. The agents of that self-destruction: those very enzymes which are part of every cell’s makeup. …for example, …think about the carcass of a dead animal: Give it some time, and it will be literally “digested” by its own enzymatic activity, initiated from within.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8367998
Last edited by budo on Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:55 pm

Neanderthals main food source: meat

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 111704.htm

Moving away from plant consumption and towards meat consumption gave the Homo species an evolutionary advantage over predecessors and animals.
Monotonous diet

In addition to confirming the Neanderthals as terrestrial carnivores, this work seems to indicate that these hominins had a very monotonous diet over time, even once they had started to change their material industry, possibly under the influence of modern humans. The baby Neanderthal of Grotte du Renne was indeed found associated to the Châtelperronian, a lithic technology similar to that of modern humans. Late Neanderthals were therefore very humanlike, painting caves and wearing necklaces, but unlike their sister species, did not seem to enjoy fishing.

Jean-Jacques Hublin, director of the Department of Human Evolution at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, comments: "This study confirms that when Homo sapiens arrived in Europe and met Neanderthals, they were in direct competition for the exploitation of large mammals." "The systematic use of the combination of CSIA and radiocarbon dating will help to understand if the two species really had the same subsistence strategies during those crucial times," concludes Sahra Talamo, a researcher at the Leipzig Max Planck Institute.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:17 pm

budo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:22 pm

And there's a lot more.. I can write a book about this, I was a vegan once myself many years ago, and my health deteriorated which lead to research, then I went full carnivore for a few years and my digestion, sleep, eye sight (used to be -7 and now at -3) improved, teeth improved.. I try to be as carnivore as I can be in general, but I do cheat a lot.

In short, if it's not good for a baby, it's not good for you!
Of course, one has to be very careful about diet when raising children. I would always err on the side of caution, and would raise children according to the wisdom of my culture, rather than any personal views I have about diet.

I'm sure we could all write books about our own dietary history, but to what extent are the lessons universalisable? I've been vegan since 1984, and, because that choice was the result of reasoning about ethics rather than personal health, I never even bothered all that much about nutrients beyond a few obvious points. I've never been ill other than colds and 'flu, held down an exceptionally tough job, reached third dan in martial arts, fathered three excellent children, and married a woman 26 years younger than myself. Nobody believes my real age. I've got some tooth decay and mildly deteriorating eyesight, and a little arthritis; but less than most people my age. I keep fit through cycling and walking and I'm not overweight; I'm a little under the average, but within acceptable limits. In the UK we are all allocated a doctor, but up until last year I never saw one and couldn't even find my NHS number. Everything falls apart some time, but so far I'm not doing too badly.

The point about things not being good for you if they are not good for babies seems either to depend on circular reasoning, or to be false. I can think of lots of things that are good for me that are not good for babies.

For me, the main issue with vegans is their frequent proselytising. It's become quite noticeable lately as the number of vegans increases. I've never been all that concerned with what other people eat, or even all that concerned about what I eat! After a time it just becomes habit.

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:19 pm

Our first form of farming (until the Egyptians started eating more wheat which led to cavities):

Animal Husbandry

In ancient Egypt, cattle were the most important livestock, and sheep, goats, and pigs were also kept; poultry including ducks, geese, and pigeons were captured in nets and bred on farms, where they were force-fed with dough to fatten them.[10]

The Nile provided a plentiful source of fish. Honey bees were domesticated from at least the Old Kingdom, providing both honey and wax.[11]

In ancient Rome, all the livestock known in ancient Egypt were available. In addition, rabbits were domesticated for food by the first century BC. To help flush them out from their underground burrows, the polecat was domesticated as the ferret, its use described by Pliny the Elder.[12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_husbandry

Between meat and grains, we farmed tubers, that's why we can handle tubers better than grains.

Meat -> Tubers -> Grains

Did you know Cauliflower, Broccoli, Kale, etc.. are all the same man made plant?

Image
Broccoli is manmade. It was carefully bred by Italian farmers more than 2,000 years ago, carefully breeding different types of wild cabbage to create it.
Like most foods we eat, they're not wild and are man made through selective breeding.

Wild Bananas have seeds and are starchy, not sweet. Why did we get rid of seeds? Because plants have anti-nutrients and humans try to reduce anti-nutrients through cooking or selective breeding.

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:26 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:17 pm

Of course, one has to be very careful about diet when raising children. I would always err on the side of caution, and would raise children according to the wisdom of my culture, rather than any personal views I have about diet.

...

For me, the main issue with vegans is their frequent proselytising. It's become quite noticeable lately as the number of vegans increases. I've never been all that concerned with what other people eat, or even all that concerned about what I eat! After a time it just becomes habit.
So you admit that you're not healthy, which is honest and admirable.

Compare that to this old man who is low-carb and eats a lot of meat, Charles Eugester, deemed "The Fittest Senior Citizen on the Planet"
Charles Eugster holds world records at a number of sprint distances… and he’s 96 years old! He may be the “fittest senior citizen on the planet”.

I avoid sugar and eat lots of meat, especially fat. I’ve been on a fat trip lately. Fat! Piles of fat. Yet, I was in a supermarket the other day and was perplexed to find yogurt with zero fat. What on earth is that? The idea of the nutrition pyramid where, at the top, is a little fat and meat, and at the bottom a lot of carbohydrates, is, excuse me, bullshit. Humans are so unbelievably stupid that we have begun to tinker with food. Our theories of nutrition have resulted in a pandemic of obesity. Can you imagine a hunter-gatherer enjoying a low-fat yogurt? Let me tell you this, too: I read a report recently which said that a fatty diet also increases your libido.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/secret-diet- ... zen-planet


Two of the oldest women of our times ate eggs and bacon
The world oldest person, aged 116, claims the secret to a long life is eating two eggs a day.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/peop ... 90441.html
World's oldest woman, 116, eats bacon daily
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /73444660/

There's a lot more stories like this. Also google Icelandic cuisine while you're at it :) Japanese eat a lot of fish which aligns with our early Homo Sapien eating patterns and preferring territory close to the sea. Fish is our super food. Don't forget Iodine as well, which is high in goose fat, and also helps us utilize vitamin D3.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:31 pm

budo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:26 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:17 pm

Of course, one has to be very careful about diet when raising children. I would always err on the side of caution, and would raise children according to the wisdom of my culture, rather than any personal views I have about diet.

...

For me, the main issue with vegans is their frequent proselytising. It's become quite noticeable lately as the number of vegans increases. I've never been all that concerned with what other people eat, or even all that concerned about what I eat! After a time it just becomes habit.
So you admit that you're not healthy, which is honest and admirable.
No, I don't say anything of the sort; the exact opposite, in fact. I don't worry about my diet all that much, precisely because I seem to be much healthier than other people my age.

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:36 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:31 pm
budo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:26 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:17 pm

Of course, one has to be very careful about diet when raising children. I would always err on the side of caution, and would raise children according to the wisdom of my culture, rather than any personal views I have about diet.

...

For me, the main issue with vegans is their frequent proselytising. It's become quite noticeable lately as the number of vegans increases. I've never been all that concerned with what other people eat, or even all that concerned about what I eat! After a time it just becomes habit.
So you admit that you're not healthy, which is honest and admirable.
No, I don't say anything of the sort; the exact opposite, in fact. I don't worry about my diet all that much, precisely because I seem to be much healthier than other people my age.
Sure, you're still healthier than the Standard American (aka 70% Sugar, 30% vegetable oils) Diet which Ancel Keys propagated around the world, anything is healthier than SAD. Comparing yourself to sicker people who are average, doesn't make you healthy though.

And how many supplements are you taking a day?

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Aloka
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Aloka » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:38 pm

budo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:36 pm
There used to be a site that documented all the baby deaths, but it was taken down by the host provider recently.

Here's some recent ones I had in my history

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -grid.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-new ... l-16191232

https://www.newsweek.com/vegan-parents- ... nt-1420877
One doesn't necessarily get accurate information from UK tabloid press such as the Mail and the Mirror. One is more likely to find an abundance of sensationalism and gossip.

.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:39 pm

budo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:36 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:31 pm
budo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:26 pm


So you admit that you're not healthy, which is honest and admirable.
No, I don't say anything of the sort; the exact opposite, in fact. I don't worry about my diet all that much, precisely because I seem to be much healthier than other people my age.
Sure, you're still healthier than the Standard American (aka 70% Sugar, 30% vegetable oils) Diet, anything is healthier than SAD. Comparing yourself to sicker people who are average, doesn't make you healthy though.

And how many supplements are you taking a day?
What does make one "healthy" then? I suspect this is going to come down to definitional fiat, isn't it?

Most days, I don't take any supplements at all.

budo
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Re: Veganism: a host of issues.

Post by budo » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:39 pm

Aloka wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:38 pm
budo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:36 pm
There used to be a site that documented all the baby deaths, but it was taken down by the host provider recently.

Here's some recent ones I had in my history

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -grid.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-new ... l-16191232

https://www.newsweek.com/vegan-parents- ... nt-1420877
One doesn't necessarily get accurate information from UK tabloid press such as the Mail and the Mirror. One is more likely to find an abundance of sensationalism and gossip.

.
One can easily google the names of the suspects and find multiple other sources.

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