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Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:54 am
by SarathW
Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

I just wonder whether Noble Eightfold Path is a better way to combat depression than the CBT.


Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:25 am
by binocular
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:54 am
I just wonder whether Noble Eightfold Path is a better way to combat depression than the CBT.
CBT may save one's life, but it gives one nothing to live for -- except for the same old pursuits of seeking sensual pleasures, those same pursuits that got one into depression to begin with ...

Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:34 am
by SarathW
I spoke to a couple of people who have gone through CBT.
They said they have to go to the therapist over and over again.
It appears CTB does not provide a long term solution to the patient.

Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:47 am
by JamesTheGiant
I would say Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is contained within Buddhism. Although not explicitly.

In CBT we are trained to be aware of our thoughts and emotions. This is just mindfulness of mind-states, pure and simple mindfulness. (Cittanupassana?)
Then we examine where the mind-states or beliefs came from, and their consequences, and then we see if we can change them, or at least recognise them. This sort of approach is common in the suttas.

I think CBT is useful because it provides me an explicit, systematic and mechanical process for challenging the malignant thoughts.
It's very simple, as opposed to the dhamma I read in the suttas, which can sometimes be nebulous and hard to apply to an exact situation.
So CBT can be useful.

But CBT is a little tool, compared to the Dhamma which is a vast system of tools.

Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:57 am
by JamesTheGiant
There's a variant of CBT called MBCT, Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy.
It is even closer to the dhamma than CBT.
It involves proper mindfulness meditation sessions and refers to the teachings of the Buddha.
www.mbct.com

Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:08 am
by SarathW
It's very simple, as opposed to the dhamma I read in the suttas, which can sometimes be nebulous and hard to apply to an exact situation.
Agree.
It takes a while to comprehend the Noble Eightfold Path.
But it provides a long-term solution so it is worth the effort.

Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:20 am
by DooDoot

Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:42 am
by budo
The first iteration of CBT was called REBT by Albert Ellis in the 1950s, and CBT came in the 1960s by Aaron T Beck.

Albert Ellis was inspired by Greek Stoicism and Buddhism, that's how he came up with REBT.
Dr. Albert Ellis, considered the "grandfather of cognitive-behavioral therapy" (CBT), has written:

Many of the principles incorporated in the theory of rational-emotive psychotherapy are not new; some of them, in fact, were originally stated several thousands of years ago, especially by the Greek and Roman Stoic philosophers (such as Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius) and by some of the ancient Taoist and Buddhist thinkers (see Suzuki, 1956, and Watts, 1959, 1960).[92][q]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_ ... tructuring

Stoicism is very similar to Buddhism as well

Epictectus sounds like he could be a paccheka buddha viewtopic.php?t=32539

eg.
We will not be troubled at any loss, but will say to ourselves on such an occasion: "I have lost nothing that belongs to me; it was not something of mine that was torn from me, but something that was not in my power has left me." Nothing beyond the use of our opinion is properly ours. Every possession rests on opinion. What is to cry and to weep? An opinion. What is misfortune, or a quarrel, or a complaint? All these things are opinions; opinions founded on the delusion that what is not subject to our own choice can be either good or evil, which it cannot.[33] By rejecting these opinions, and seeking good and evil in the power of choice alone, we may confidently achieve peace of mind in every condition of life.[39]
"2. Remember that following desire promises the attainment of that of which you are desirous; and aversion promises the avoiding that to which you are averse. However, he who fails to obtain the object of his desire is disappointed, and he who incurs the object of his aversion wretched. If, then, you confine your aversion to those objects only which are contrary to the natural use of your faculties, which you have in your own control, you will never incur anything to which you are averse. But if you are averse to sickness, or death, or poverty, you will be wretched. Remove aversion, then, from all things that are not in our control, and transfer it to things contrary to the nature of what is in our control. But, for the present, totally suppress desire: for, if you desire any of the things which are not in your own control, you must necessarily be disappointed; and of those which are, and which it would be laudable to desire, nothing is yet in your possession. Use only the appropriate actions of pursuit and avoidance; and even these lightly, and with gentleness and reservation. "

Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:44 pm
by dharmacorps
Some aspects of CBT overlap quite well with Buddhist practice. Of interest, CBT and Mindfulness based CBT have the highest success rates of any kind of therapy. My wife is a therapist and practices mindfulness based CBT and somatic therapy.

Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:24 pm
by SarathW
dharmacorps wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:44 pm
Some aspects of CBT overlap quite well with Buddhist practice. Of interest, CBT and Mindfulness based CBT have the highest success rates of any kind of therapy. My wife is a therapist and practices mindfulness based CBT and somatic therapy.
Could you ask her (or you) provide more details?
Or give some reference.
Thanks

Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:40 pm
by JamesTheGiant
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:24 pm
Could you ask her (or you) provide more details?
Or give some reference.
Thanks
Use Google. It's a very simple thing to search. CBT success rate compared.

Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:12 am
by SarathW
I just wonder what is "mindfulness-based CBT"
:thinking:
The following video gives some idea about it.


Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:55 pm
by dharmacorps
The main researcher to google is John Teasdale, a British psychologist. He based the technique on some teachings by Ajahn Sumedho.

Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:47 pm
by Aloka
.

Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy:

https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/a-to-z/ ... erapy-mbct

Details of a Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy course at Oxford University UK:

https://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/about/mst-i ... ve-therapy


:anjali:


.

Re: Cognitive behavior therapy and Noble Eightfold Path

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:46 pm
by SarathW
Thanks, Aloka and Dharma C.
Wow! this is what I exactly expected when I did my OP.
So this has gone all the way to Buddhist teaching.

=========
Year II
The second year covers the theory and practice of applying MBCT with different client groups, and equips students with the knowledge and skills they need to become competent MBCT instructors. The themes are:

Learning to be an MBCT instructor
Clinical applications: Theory and practice
Buddhist Foundation for Application of Mindfulness

https://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/about/mst-i ... ve-therapy