Zom wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:21 pm
How do you know no one has it? Do you have access to the contents of their mind and memory or do you base it off your interpretation of text?
Because no one can demonstrate it at least as a prolonged period of sitting meditation. If you state "people have jhanas", it is you who should provide evidences for that - not me, who doubts such statements
[[All my edits below are for grammar, punctuation fixes, and better wording to get my points across]]
So a few points and questions:
- I never stated people "Have" jhanas, you are the one that used "Has" first and I used that term in response to your response, but if you read my first reply you'll see I never used the possessive term. I stated they can enter jhanas or have mastered the steps/routine to entering jhanas
- Even if people sit for 48+ hours it doesn't mean they have attained jhana, so you don't know
from watching that either, and you'll never know
from watching someone. As I asked, how do you know
- Can you please provide me with a sutta that says how many hours one should sit to attain first jhana. Last I checked the only qualification for entering jhana is overcoming the 5 hindrances, and not based on duration of how long you sit.
- So are you saying that several monks like Henepola Gunaratana, Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Brahm, Ayya Khema, Bhikkhu Analayo, Pau Auk Sayadaw and many many more have not experienced jhanas because there is no evidence of them sitting for several hours?
- Are you saying that the noble eightfold path is not possible to practice and experience, and if you do not believe in the noble eightfold path then why are you a follower of Buddhism?
- I personally do not need to provide you with any evidence so I am not proving anything to you or anyone. You should ask me how I know
instead of asking me to provide evidence, two separate questions. Now if you're saying something specific like "you need X amount of hours to enter jhana" can you please provide a sutta source for that.
- The closest thing you'll find as evidence is ECG and MRI scans https://www.hindawi.com/journals/np/2013/653572/
do you base it off your interpretation of text?
This, of course. Yes, I strongly doubt that people often (or even rarely) attain "superhuman states" nowadays -) What what once a samaññaphala (fruit of recluseship) became popularized, demystified, simplified, secularized "attainment" for everyone. A part of McMindfulness trend, really.
And what evidence do you have that attaining jhana is no longer possible, do the suttas not say that wherever you find the dhamma you find enlightened monks? and if the dhamma is so distorted and long gone, then why do you follow it? According to your perspective then, you shouldn't be even following Buddhism, since the real Buddhism has disappeared, so why waste time? If the Buddhism we have today is the wrong Buddhism, then there is nothing you can do and you are simply wasting time being on this forum. If jhana is already corrupted then by extension the rest of Buddhism is also corrupted, so why do you follow Corrupted Wrong Buddhism?
There is absolutely no problem having your perspective and belief system if you are consistent about it, but to reject 1) the noble eightfold path or 2) that Modern buddhism is wrong Buddhism, or at least not accessible to people, then what is the point of being a follower of the wrong system. It's not logical.
Now if I were to meet you on the streets, or on an a non-Buddhism forum, and you were to say "Yeah, I looked into Buddhism, and I believe the Buddhism we have today is the Wrong Buddhism, so I don't follow Buddhism" then that would be logical and consistent, but it is not logical to follow Wrong Buddhism, which is what you are doing.
This is the reason why I'm not on Mahayana forums because I believe that is wrong Buddhism, you'll never see me follow what I believe is wrong, that doesn't make sense.
So again, there is nothing wrong with believing that modern Buddhism is wrong Buddhism, what is wrong in my eyes is the hypocrisy of following Wrong Buddhism on a Wrong Buddhism forum.