You cannot have stress and bliss at the same time

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budo
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You cannot have stress and bliss at the same time

Post by budo » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:08 am

Stress is cortisol and bliss is serotonin (not dopamine).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12467090
It is likely that under chronic stress or depression, the capacity for increase in serotonin transporter has reached its limit due to the chronically elevated blood cortisol level.
- That means the more 5 hindrances you have, the more handicapped your serotonin (bliss) levels are.
- That means if you enter jhana, you have very very low levels of cortisol and higher levels of serotonin.
- That means you cannot stop stress with more stress (masochism, and simply observing dukkha), which is why the Buddha left the ascetics. You cannot stop fire with more fire.
- This is why right livelihood/lifestyle is part of the noble eightfold path, you are not going to enter jhanas if you have a stressful job (like killing animals/people) which raises cortisol levels.

Many people don't know what serotonin feels like, they mistake dopamine (addiction) for serotonin. Serotonin is a bliss you get from being healthy, dopamine is a short term addiction response and dopamine usually increases cortisol too, like say eating sugary junk food, this will increase dopamine AND cortisol.

But serotonin and cortisol are at odds with each other they handicap each other. This is why the Buddha said neither pleasure (dopamine) nor pain (cortisol) is the way. The middle way (serotonin) is the way.

So you are trading short term pleasure (dopamine) for stress (cortisol) which in the long hurts you and removes bliss (serotonin). Instead give up pleasure (dopamine) and pain (cortisol) and attain bliss (serotonin).

"It has been known for some time that serotonin can modulate pain perception and the function of some drugs is based on this. Nevertheless, what is new in our study now is that we were able to identify a specific subtype of serotonin receptor that reduced the perception of pain more efficiently. This is an important result, which might help to treat chronic pain more efficiently in the future."
"Serotonin Receptor Helps "Turn Off" Chronic Pain"
https://www.neurologyadvisor.com/pain/c ... le/406089/
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/291647.php

dharmacorps
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Re: You cannot have stress and bliss at the same time

Post by dharmacorps » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:52 pm

But, its not that simple though... neurochemistry is VERY complicated and we know next to nothing about what is involved in jhanas or if they can be measured or studied at all scientifically. Its the frontier of medicine along with genomics.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: You cannot have stress and bliss at the same time

Post by Crazy cloud » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:48 pm

Interesting, thanks friend @budo

_/\_
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

Digity
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Re: You cannot have stress and bliss at the same time

Post by Digity » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:03 am

According to this logic we should all start taking anti-depressants, since they make serotonin more available. :|

I think you're simplifying it too much by reducing it down to dopamine, cortisol and serotonin. I think there's a lot more to it than that, but those biochemicals obviously play a significant role in dukkha.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: You cannot have stress and bliss at the same time

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:28 am

dharmacorps wrote:we know next to nothing about what is involved in jhanas or if they can be measured or studied at all scientifically.
An interesting draft paper on a study of EEG readings of people entering jhana:

The paper is here.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

dharmacorps
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Re: You cannot have stress and bliss at the same time

Post by dharmacorps » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:32 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:28 am
dharmacorps wrote:we know next to nothing about what is involved in jhanas or if they can be measured or studied at all scientifically.
An interesting draft paper on a study of EEG readings of people entering jhana:

The paper is here.
Interesting paper. I'll have to read through this, but I am still not sure I can be convinced! :anjali:

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LG2V
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Re: You cannot have stress and bliss at the same time

Post by LG2V » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:54 am

Good point. The neurochemistry is a bit more complex than that though, imo, but I'm an avid fan, and not an expert. A dopamine-driven dilettante, if you will.

Noticing how certain states exist in complementary distribution is one of the pleasures of insight meditation.
Here are some excellent sites for giving free Dana (Click-Based Donation):
http://freerice.comhttp://greatergood.com/www.ripple.orgwww.thenonprofits.com

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