Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

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SarathW
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by SarathW » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:38 pm

Regardless, perfect morality does not guarantee spiritual freedom. This is why monks following impeccable Vinaya for 40 years end up disrobing for love (sex). I think a disposition for Nibbana must exist and that individuals with too high genetic sexual/reproductive/self instincts won't make it.
Good point DD.
This is why I said the Right View is the most important ingredient here. It is not the just book knowledge but realising Dukkha (Dukkha Sacca not Dukkha) Unfortunately to realise the Dukkha Sacca you have to ve at least Sotapanna. The problem is that Sotapanna still has the sexual desire. So a monk who is Sotapanna can still disrobe.
In my opinion, a person who realise Dukkha Sacca will have less depression.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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robertk
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by robertk » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:42 am

.
The problem is that Sotapanna still has the sexual desire. So a monk who is Sotapanna can still disrobe
A monk who became sotapanna could never disrobe.

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DooDoot
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:58 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:38 pm
The problem is that Sotapanna still has the sexual desire.
Thanks SW but I don't agree. I doubt a Sotapanna has enough sexual desire to be a hindrance to practise & advancement. The suttas don't mention when Kondanna and Sariputta were Sotapanna; they struggled with sexual desire.

SarathW
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:35 am

What about Visaka?
She had ten or sixteen children.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:45 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:35 am
What about Visaka?
She had ten or sixteen children.
Before or after stream-entry? :shrug:

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robertk
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by robertk » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:11 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:45 am
SarathW wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:35 am
What about Visaka?
She had ten or sixteen children.
Before or after stream-entry? :shrug:
She became a sotapanna at age 7.
https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bu ... _4lbud.htm

binocular
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by binocular » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:14 am

markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:19 pm
/.../
There doesnt seem to be Samma Vayama, maybe because samma dhitti is not understood well enough.
Possibly because there are aspects of Right View that have to be understood by implication, not to be put into words. Easterners have the advantage of the home turf in that regard.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

markandeya
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by markandeya » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:46 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:14 am
markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:19 pm
/.../
There doesnt seem to be Samma Vayama, maybe because samma dhitti is not understood well enough.
Possibly because there are aspects of Right View that have to be understood by implication, not to be put into words. Easterners have the advantage of the home turf in that regard.
I agree, ultimately the whole system of eightfold path has to work equally together, and grow like limbs, if one is isolated from the other the whole things goes out of shape and the process just wont work or it will stagnate, like what is happening in Western Sanghas.

Although the lists are there from 1 to 8 and samma dhitti will always be the starting point, due to the way most people in the west are educated , religious conditioning and constantly stuck on sexual psychology are the pivoting points of the hindrances to Buddha Dharma it becomes quite difficult to gain any real steadiness in Samma Dhitti. Western TheravAda is way to stuck in the physical and has become blind to the esoteric and more subtle wisdom teachings, what can be the outcome of blind leading the blind.

All of these problems and micro details of the problems that Western sangha are conditioned to are secondary and become less significant if the process is followed with the some wisdom. And I am not attempting to to give any micro mundane analysis as this again is just a part of the thinking analytical intellect, which in Buddhist Terms would be considered as unconsciousness or mundane.

The intent of my posting was to go into a positive direction on what can be learned and adapted from time honoured ways and learn to adapt some of the techniques that have been used in Eastern traditions. I am basing some of my ideas on having more experience living and practicing in Asia with natives both ordained or as laypeople, sometimes laypeople or householders are more developed than ordained people, the dynamic between the two is not as hierarchical as the Western TheraVada, this to e creates a division between the lay community and the Ordained, but nothing is ever black and white. And also some of the accounts of the social fabric of Ancient India give by the Chinese pioneers such as I ching and Fa-Hien are give such positive accounts about the synthesis and diversity of practice and how the monks lived in very advanced highly conscious ways, which is why India and Asia has produced plenty of realized people and the west we cant even count on one hand. While some of the practices are well defined the general mood of original Buddhism was inclusive of cultural differences and eclecticism was quite normal.

binocular
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by binocular » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:47 pm

markandeya wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:46 am
binocular wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:14 am
markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:19 pm
/.../
There doesnt seem to be Samma Vayama, maybe because samma dhitti is not understood well enough.
Possibly because there are aspects of Right View that have to be understood by implication, not to be put into words. Easterners have the advantage of the home turf in that regard.
I agree, ultimately the whole system of eightfold path has to work equally together, and grow like limbs, if one is isolated from the other the whole things goes out of shape and the process just wont work or it will stagnate, like what is happening in Western Sanghas.

Although the lists are there from 1 to 8 and samma dhitti will always be the starting point, due to the way most people in the west are educated , religious conditioning and constantly stuck on sexual psychology are the pivoting points of the hindrances to Buddha Dharma it becomes quite difficult to gain any real steadiness in Samma Dhitti. Western TheravAda is way to stuck in the physical and has become blind to the esoteric and more subtle wisdom teachings, what can be the outcome of blind leading the blind.
I don't see that as being the issue.

The issue, rather, is that Westerners tend to approach religion/spirituality in a naive, secular way, thinking they can really know things for themselves, from scratch, not having to take anything for granted.

"Is what the Buddha taught really true?" -- I doubt any Easterner would ever ask themselves this question. On the other hand, for many Westerners, it seems to be central and informs their whole approach to religion/spirituality.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

markandeya
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by markandeya » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:22 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:47 pm
markandeya wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:46 am
binocular wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:14 am

Possibly because there are aspects of Right View that have to be understood by implication, not to be put into words. Easterners have the advantage of the home turf in that regard.
I agree, ultimately the whole system of eightfold path has to work equally together, and grow like limbs, if one is isolated from the other the whole things goes out of shape and the process just wont work or it will stagnate, like what is happening in Western Sanghas.

Although the lists are there from 1 to 8 and samma dhitti will always be the starting point, due to the way most people in the west are educated , religious conditioning and constantly stuck on sexual psychology are the pivoting points of the hindrances to Buddha Dharma it becomes quite difficult to gain any real steadiness in Samma Dhitti. Western TheravAda is way to stuck in the physical and has become blind to the esoteric and more subtle wisdom teachings, what can be the outcome of blind leading the blind.
I don't see that as being the issue.

The issue, rather, is that Westerners tend to approach religion/spirituality in a naive, secular way, thinking they can really know things for themselves, from scratch, not having to take anything for granted.

"Is what the Buddha taught really true?" -- I doubt any Easterner would ever ask themselves this question. On the other hand, for many Westerners, it seems to be central and informs their whole approach to religion/spirituality.
I dont see how we are saying anything different.

To get back more to the point and what I and others have found beneficial is to take teachings from the most healthy sources. At the time of the Buddha and in many places within all of parts of Asia there would have been good and bad patches, thats just part of human life.

Ajhan Chah in his teachings was very critical of the current practices of Thailand, so it becomes more about taking the best parts and learning to apply them. Western TheravAda and in the east is stuck in institutional regulations, and this seems to be a hindrance, but somehow I am looking to find a middle ground, where tradition is preserved but not set in stone and Buddhism is progressive and contemporary while not dissociating itself from the past.

Obviously sectarianism is something that is made up or cashed in on in unbalanced proportions by imperialist monotheistic materialists with agenda's, but if one can see past that there is a wide range of beneficial practices and studies that can compliment ones own chosen practices. Like as someone mentioned monks or nuns or lay practitioners having courses in psychotherapy. it may not be advised by the hierarchy, but they would use a doctor for a health condition Learning more about diet and nutrition that have been used in the past as aids for health and well being for the meditater. More investigation into chi and prana and understanding the vital forces, studying sutta in the traditional way , rather than monotonous repetition. These are just some of the things that can be implemented, not just for ordained but for lay people.

This is the section for wellness, diets and fitness. So if the ordained and lay people are depressed mostly, which may have some causes within the practice of TheravAda then they need to be addressed individually or as a whole.
Last edited by markandeya on Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

binocular
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by binocular » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:52 pm

markandeya wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:22 pm
I dont see how we are saying anything different.
Oh, but we are saying totally different things.

I'm talking about the failure of many Westerners to take for granted the truthfulness of Buddhist teachings, and this failure possibly being the prime cause of their depression and lack of spiritual progress. You're talking about the benefits of supplementing one's practice with esoteric and other teachings.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

markandeya
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by markandeya » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:05 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:52 pm
markandeya wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:22 pm
I dont see how we are saying anything different.
Oh, but we are saying totally different things.

I'm talking about the failure of many Westerners to take for granted the truthfulness of Buddhist teachings, and this failure possibly being the prime cause of their depression and lack of spiritual progress. You're talking about the benefits of supplementing one's practice with esoteric and other teachings.
Ok Thanks, I think you misunderstood everything.

auto
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by auto » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:24 pm

If to go far to that side what you suggest then its psychics, healers, people reading from cards or stars what is going on. If you idk enter the door and forget the hat on then it mean that you gonna miss the bus tomorrow.

Monks having depression is because they did something wrong and then following or doing practices are all mute(fabrication) unless that past issue is resolved.

auto
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by auto » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:03 pm

markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:19 pm
My personal experience and those of many others is that meditation is best when body and mind is in healthy conditions. I do not see any developed traits within the Western Sanghas as per comparison to Asia, where monks would also be healers, practice systems of strengthening the body and mind via more subtle esoteric practices, which I would assume by being monk without the distractions of daily life and monetary problems they should be excelling in. The outer infrastructure is second to none, nice buildings, very aesthetic in many of the Buddhist centres but the internal development seems very slow, self obsessed, bogged down and not advancing as it should be.
Cessation of craving.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths
Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to re-becoming, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for becoming, craving for disbecoming.
It seem there is no cure for depression, it is cessation of craving and then we don't become to things associated with the dhukka.

basically we stop stepping on the same rake again.

this is rules are forever, no return to sexual life unless you want to go through the knots and issues, if you are powerful then you solve them easy, but that is for those who know how to drink and not become animal.

markandeya
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Re: Theravadin Monks, lay community and depression

Post by markandeya » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:46 pm

Hi Auto
It seem there is no cure for depression, it is cessation of craving and then we don't become to things associated with the dhukka.

basically we stop stepping on the same rake again.
The closest thing I can find within the tradition to depression would be perhaps sloth and torpor. I am not one to think that there are no cures, thats why I targeted as the first part of the solution focusing on Samma Vayama , to raise the energetic levels, perhaps samma dhitti can used to identify some of the causes and conditions of the hindrance states, and then start skillfully applying other methods within the eightfold path and large memory data base of a 25000 year old tradition to transcend limitations and hindrances.



Within Buddhism and other Yogas systems I have literally seen miracles in the transformation powers when the methods are applied properly. Simple believing in the teachings wont give anything more than a fixed view, mundane faith and conviction in a belief system, there will be no real transformation or insight gained by simply believing in a philosophy or religion.

Also this is not directed just at ordained people, Bikkhus doesn't necessarily mean monk, one going forth is turning inwards towards Buddha, so it can apply to anyone, always control of senses is paramount to promote the right type of experience for insight.

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