Vegetarians and depression

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dharmacorps
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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by dharmacorps » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:05 pm

Makes you wonder if perhaps it isn't about the diet itself, but personality tendencies of those who are interested in vegetarianism or veganism? Not meant as an insult.

auto
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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by auto » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:46 pm

Well today i went to grill party.

As usual there is boredom signal, notice and ingest it or digest whatever. Wait till others feel it, they will bring out card deck to play, that is a first mistake of not noticing boredom.

Second, the smell of meat(or thinking about meat) will induce craving, will not allow see meat as what it is. So not waiting till the change happen in consciousness where craving stops and then seeing meat as it is.

Third when that change happen then start see arising and passing away of a mental defilement of desire to eat meat.

Vegetarians when they blatantly abstain from eating meat, do it wrong imo, because of not having done mindfulness in previous steps of defeating boredom, lethargy, dullness..they will not gain discernment. Desire to eat meat doesn't go away when senses react, the element of taste and consciousness will arise but when discernment or sensitivity is on then noticing mindstates what happen become available, so could go forth.

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Grigoris
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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:50 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:46 pm
Well today i went to grill party.

As usual there is boredom signal, notice and ingest it or digest whatever. Wait till others feel it, they will bring out card deck to play, that is a first mistake of not noticing boredom.

Second, the smell of meat(or thinking about meat) will induce craving, will not allow see meat as what it is. So not waiting till the change happen in consciousness where craving stops and then seeing meat as it is.

Third when that change happen then start see arising and passing away of a mental defilement of desire to eat meat.

Vegetarians when they blatantly abstain from eating meat, do it wrong imo, because of not having done mindfulness in previous steps of defeating boredom, lethargy, dullness..they will not gain discernment. Desire to eat meat doesn't go away when senses react, the element of taste and consciousness will arise but when discernment or sensitivity is on then noticing mindstates what happen become available, so could go forth.
You nailed it! That's why most people I know (including myself) became vegetarians: Boredom. :rofl:
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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budo
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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by budo » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:47 pm

Meat does not have any cravings attached to it, sugar does. I dare you to go on a zerocarb meat only diet for one month and you will lose all hunger that you will stop eating. I did zerocarb meat only diet for a year to fix my digestion, it got to the point where I had no more appetite, I was eating once every other day, maximum once a day. Every time I get sick I go back to zerocarb meat only diet.

Cravings come from insulin spikes, and sugar causes the largest insulin spikes. Protein also causes insulin spikes but those protein spikes are averted if you do intermittent fasting, and if you do zerocarb meat only diet you will naturally slip into intermittent fasting.

Read about Steffanson Vihjalmur, he lived with eskimos for a decade ate only meat and fish, his health problems went away, when he returned to NYC they didn't believe him so they put him in a Bellevue hospital for a year to study him, it's called the Bellevue study

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilhjalmur_Stefansson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilhjalmu ... t_and_fish

Download and read the book "Strong Medicine" by Dr. Blake Johnson, a zerocarb meat only diet reverses a lot of health problems, even tooth decay. https://eatmeatdrinkwater.files.wordpre ... aldson.pdf


The Steffanson Bellevue study:
The results of the year-long trial were published in 1930 in the Journal of Biological Chemistry and showed that the answer to all of the questions was: There were no deficiency problems; the two men remained perfectly healthy; their bowels remained normal, except that their stools were smaller and did not smell. The absence of starchy and sugary carbohydrates from their diet appeared to have only good effects. Once again, Stefansson discovered that he felt better and was healthier on a diet that restricted carbohydrates. Only when fats were restricted did he suffer any problems. During this experiment his intake had varied between 2,000 and 3,100 calories per day and he derived, by choice, an average of eighty percent of his energy from animal fat and the other twenty percent from protein.[

auto
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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by auto » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:44 pm

budo wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:47 pm
Meat does not have any cravings attached to it, sugar does. I dare you to go on a zerocarb meat only diet for one month and you will lose all hunger that you will stop eating. I did zerocarb meat only diet for a year to fix my digestion, it got to the point where I had no more appetite, I was eating once every other day, maximum once a day. Every time I get sick I go back to zerocarb meat only diet.

Cravings come from insulin spikes, and sugar causes the largest insulin spikes. Protein also causes insulin spikes but those protein spikes are averted if you do intermittent fasting, and if you do zerocarb meat only diet you will naturally slip into intermittent fasting.

Read about Steffanson Vihjalmur, he lived with eskimos for a decade ate only meat and fish, his health problems went away, when he returned to NYC they didn't believe him so they put him in a Bellevue hospital for a year to study him, it's called the Bellevue study
Apples vs meat, there is craving for meat, when thinking about eating apples there is liberation. But at the same time craving for meat will try to convince to eat meat. There will internal seeing happen of meat is dark and apple is light then mind lets go of meat. I have beat the craving for meat multiple ways.
Where i live apple isn't even considered a food. Like snakes whos receptors doesn't activate towards certain animals and therefore these animals are not considered as prey. Mind have to realize that apple is food.

Apple brings out the empty stomach feeling while heavy food and overeating will shut it down. When that empty stomach is up then the gas liberates from a belly upwards so i don't even wonder if get mental issues because the poop smell is not good and think if the gases from meat go upwards so it is for your own protection that the empty stomach feeling shuts down.

empty stomach feeling can be pretty enjoyable not a hindrance just wait till it gets enjoyable and that pleasure is not obsession but helps see the foody gotten pleasure as gross.

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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:08 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:05 pm
Makes you wonder if perhaps it isn't about the diet itself, but personality tendencies of those who are interested in vegetarianism or veganism? Not meant as an insult.
Yes, that's certainly a possibility, though I suspect it would be very difficult to pin it down in a study.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Digity
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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by Digity » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:29 am

I'm becoming less of a fan of vegan and vegetarian diet. I don't think you get all the proper nutrients on those diets and I think it can lead to deficiencies, which can cause anxiety, depression, etc. I had an iron deficiency from donating blood and I can tell you that it had a significant impact on my mental well being. Once I was put on supplements and got my iron back up I felt a lot better. I've been following a flexible diet where I'm mostly vegetarian, but eat meat on rare occasions. However, I haven't felt the best...I tried taking some supplements that seem to help with anxiety and notice a big difference...this makes me wonder what I'm missing from these diets and what it's causing. Think of all the nutrients missing from a vegan diet and what effect that would have over many years. If you supplement a lot maybe you can pull off a vegan diet. I sympathize with the desire to follow these diets and it's something I've tried to follow to some degree, but I'm questioning whether it's best for me and my mental well being.

Based on my experience, I'm guessing the depression is due to nutritional deficiencies. I think a lot of those B vitamins, zinc, etc are lacking from vegetarian diets and I suspect they play a important role in our anxiety/depression. If anything, I'd say that if you're prone to mental issues like anxiety and depression I think you need to be more cautious about becoming a vegan/vegetarian.

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seeker242
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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by seeker242 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:48 am

Digity wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:29 am
I'm becoming less of a fan of vegan and vegetarian diet. I don't think you get all the proper nutrients on those diets and I think it can lead to deficiencies, which can cause anxiety, depression, etc. I had an iron deficiency from donating blood and I can tell you that it had a significant impact on my mental well being. Once I was put on supplements and got my iron back up I felt a lot better. I've been following a flexible diet where I'm mostly vegetarian, but eat meat on rare occasions. However, I haven't felt the best...I tried taking some supplements that seem to help with anxiety and notice a big difference...this makes me wonder what I'm missing from these diets and what it's causing. Think of all the nutrients missing from a vegan diet and what effect that would have over many years. If you supplement a lot maybe you can pull off a vegan diet. I sympathize with the desire to follow these diets and it's something I've tried to follow to some degree, but I'm questioning whether it's best for me and my mental well being.

Based on my experience, I'm guessing the depression is due to nutritional deficiencies. I think a lot of those B vitamins, zinc, etc are lacking from vegetarian diets and I suspect they play a important role in our anxiety/depression. If anything, I'd say that if you're prone to mental issues like anxiety and depression I think you need to be more cautious about becoming a vegan/vegetarian.
There are no nutrients inherently lacking in a vegetarian diet. Nor in a vegan diet except for vitamin B12, which is very easy to supplement. I've been vegan for over 25 years and according to my Doctor, I don't, and never have had, any nutritional deficiency. Problems generally occur when people don't eat a balanced diet with enough variety of fruits, vegetables, grains and legumes. It's been proven time and again that you can get all the necessary nutrients. However, vegan and vegetarian diet is not necessarily healthy. It all depends on what you are eating, rather than what you aren't eating. Coca cola and potato chips are vegan, but not healthy!

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budo
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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by budo » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:08 am

seeker242 wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:48 am
Digity wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:29 am
I'm becoming less of a fan of vegan and vegetarian diet. I don't think you get all the proper nutrients on those diets and I think it can lead to deficiencies, which can cause anxiety, depression, etc. I had an iron deficiency from donating blood and I can tell you that it had a significant impact on my mental well being. Once I was put on supplements and got my iron back up I felt a lot better. I've been following a flexible diet where I'm mostly vegetarian, but eat meat on rare occasions. However, I haven't felt the best...I tried taking some supplements that seem to help with anxiety and notice a big difference...this makes me wonder what I'm missing from these diets and what it's causing. Think of all the nutrients missing from a vegan diet and what effect that would have over many years. If you supplement a lot maybe you can pull off a vegan diet. I sympathize with the desire to follow these diets and it's something I've tried to follow to some degree, but I'm questioning whether it's best for me and my mental well being.

Based on my experience, I'm guessing the depression is due to nutritional deficiencies. I think a lot of those B vitamins, zinc, etc are lacking from vegetarian diets and I suspect they play a important role in our anxiety/depression. If anything, I'd say that if you're prone to mental issues like anxiety and depression I think you need to be more cautious about becoming a vegan/vegetarian.
There are no nutrients inherently lacking in a vegetarian diet. Nor in a vegan diet except for vitamin B12, which is very easy to supplement. I've been vegan for over 25 years and according to my Doctor, I don't, and never have had, any nutritional deficiency. Problems generally occur when people don't eat a balanced diet with enough variety of fruits, vegetables, grains and legumes. It's been proven time and again that you can get all the necessary nutrients. However, vegan and vegetarian diet is not necessarily healthy. It all depends on what you are eating, rather than what you aren't eating. Coca cola and potato chips are vegan, but not healthy!
The problem with a vegan diet isn't the nutritional deficiency but all the issues you get from too much plant foods as plant foods have a lot of anti-nutrients. Anti-nutrients lead to malabsorption.

- Phytic acid which binds with minerals and causes deficiencies
- Tanins
- Lectins from legumes
- Oxolate problems, from eating too much spinach and cruciferous vegetables. Also Calcium oxolate can destroy your galbladder and lead to jaundice
- Protease inhibitors

Not to mention people who are allergic to gluten and other nutrients.

Also nutrients from meat are way more concentrated, take for example Retinol vs Beta-carotene, a 150 gram piece of liver will give you enough vitamin A for a month, whereas you'd need to eat A LOT of carrots to get the same amount of Vitamin A from beta-carotene. Also not everyone can utilize Beta-carotene properly, I believe a quarter of the population doesn't have the ability to utilize Beta-carotene so they must eat meat to attain Retinol, therefore veganism/vegetarianism isn't for everyone.

Ideally we are meat eaters as meat doesn't have any of these anti-nutrient issues, but meat eating leads to aging as well due to rising the hormone MTOR but not as bad as carbohydrates and insulin, so a moderate protein ketogenic diet is ideal.

But if you want something simple that's not keto but still very healthy, just follow the 33/33/33 rule

- 33% cooked starches (potatoes, rice, etc.)
- 33% cooked veggies (spinach, carrots, etc.)
- 33% meat/fish

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budo
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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by budo » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:23 am

Oh and I forgot to add about depression..

You cannot have chemical based depression if your hormones serotonin, beta-endorphin, and dopamine are properly regulated and balanced.

The amino acid in meat that is used to build the hormone serotonin and beta-endorphin is tryptophan. Tryptophan is the same chemical they use for nearly most anti-depressants. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4728667/

When you eat meat you get natural tryptophan but in order to transport and utilize tryptophan you need clean glucose (not fructose). So eating meat + starch is a great way to naturally balance the three feel good hormones serotonin, beta-endorphin, and dopamine.

Also having good sleep as well. In the book Potatoes not Prozac they put people on a meat + starch diet, and they made them eat potatoes at night before going to sleep, and they had better results than the anti-depressant drug Prozac.

That's probably why vegetarians are depressed, because they're not getting enough protein.

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seeker242
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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by seeker242 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:28 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:08 am

The problem with a vegan diet isn't the nutritional deficiency but all the issues you get from too much plant foods as plant foods have a lot of anti-nutrients. Anti-nutrients lead to malabsorption.

- Phytic acid which binds with minerals and causes deficiencies
- Tanins
- Lectins from legumes
- Oxolate problems, from eating too much spinach and cruciferous vegetables. Also Calcium oxolate can destroy your galbladder and lead to jaundice
- Protease inhibitors
None of those things are actually a problem in a well balanced diet.
Not to mention people who are allergic to gluten and other nutrients.
I've never heard of allergy to "other nutrients" and some people are allergic to gluten. Many vegan foods are also gluten free. It's not difficult to eat a gluten free vegan diet. Many people do.
Also nutrients from meat are way more concentrated, take for example Retinol vs Beta-carotene, a 150 gram piece of liver will give you enough vitamin A for a month, whereas you'd need to eat A LOT of carrots to get the same amount of Vitamin A from beta-carotene.
Yet it's still not difficult to get the appropriate amount of Vit A from plants. Vit A deficiency is not a significant issue in the vegan and veg population of first world countries. The gene mutation issue that is mentioned does not reduce the utilization of beta-carotene to zero. Even if you are one of those people with the particular gene mutation, it is still not difficult to get enough Vit A to prevent deficiency.
That's probably why vegetarians are depressed, because they're not getting enough protein.
There is no evidence that a veg diet is deficient in protein.

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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by DNS » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:28 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:00 am
however reverse causation cannot be ruled out.
Probably the most important statement of the whole article. :)
And a critique of said article.
http://www.theveganrd.com/2017/11/veget ... epression/
A particularly interesting snippet.
The subjects were a small group of self-identified vegans and vegetarians, many of whom turned out to be nothing of the kind. In fact, 5% of the vegetarians and 72% of the vegans (72 percent!) said they currently consume some red meat. They were also just as likely as the omnivores in the study to consume fatty fish and shellfish. So I don’t know – maybe the study showed that depression is more common among people who think they are vegetarian but aren’t at all.
Yes, exactly, a critical flaw in the study is the incorrect identification as 'vegetarian' among some of the subjects. Note this sentence from the study:
In contrast, a small survey of Seventh Day Adventist adults found no increased risk of depression or anxiety among vegetarians who excluded fish (Beezhold et al., 2010).
"among vegetarians who exclude fish" -- vegans and vegetarians don't eat fish. Fish is meat, it's not a mammal, but still an animal and their flesh is meat. Many people identify as vegetarian, even though they regularly eat fish, chicken, pork and even some beef. I feel like telling some [so-called] "vegetarians" to at least put down the chicken leg while making that claim. :tongue:

A well-balanced vegetarian and even vegan diet provides all necessary nutrients. A vegan who eats only potato chips and diet coke is staying true to being vegan (no meat or animal products), but would obviously be very unhealthy and not provide the necessary nutrients.

Digity
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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by Digity » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:34 am

I don't think vegan/vegetarian works for everyone. Imagine an Eskimo eating such a diet...it wouldn't work...they have to eat meat. I just think that if you have struggles with depression and anxiety then you need to be careful about becoming a vegan/vegetarian. If you do go that route then you need to make sure you're 100% on top of supplements, etc.

I was eating mostly vegetarian, but I'm going to start incorporating more meats like liver and shellfish, which are dense in nutrients to see if it makes a difference. I don't even want to eat liver frankly...but it's one of the most nutrient dense food. I'm at least willing to experiment with this for a bit and see what the effects are. If it makes no difference, then that's fine with me...it'll incentive me to go back more to vegetarianism. However, at the moment I feel like something is off so I'm willing to see if this makes a difference. Having said that, it's been difficult for me to make this decision, but I feel like it's something I need to at least explore just to see if it matters or not. I might come out of this more in favour of being a vegetarian if I notice no difference.

Last thought, I love vegan/vegetarian food. If you can thrive on that diet then go for it! I am a big fan if it's working for you.

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Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:41 am

Eating ice-cream always cheers me up. :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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