the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by robertk »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:08 am Greetings,
TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:28 pm As long as the meat comes from an animal that is already dead its fine in Theravada Buddhism. You cant order like a live fish or lobster that will die after you order it.
That may be true for monastics... can you cite anything that says this is also true for lay people?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Absolutely true for Buddhist laypeople. However the naked asecetics and others of wrong view thought differently.
http://www.aimwell.org/siha.html
here is the intro by ven. Pesala
Introduction

This discourse to General Sīha shows why many Buddhists are neither vegetarians nor vegans. General Sīha was a follower of the Nigaṇṭhā (the Jains). The discourse makes it clear that:–

The Buddha ate meat when it was offered.
A Stream-winner (General Sīha) can buy meat or order it to be bought, although a Stream-winner is incapable of intentionally killing any living-being even to save his/her own life.
Those who hold wrong-views will blame Buddhists for eating meat.
The Buddha teaches the not-doing of any unwholesome deeds, and the cutting off of lust, ill-will, and delusion, leading to the relief of suffering
.
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by TRobinson465 »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:08 am Greetings,
TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:28 pm As long as the meat comes from an animal that is already dead its fine in Theravada Buddhism. You cant order like a live fish or lobster that will die after you order it.
That may be true for monastics... can you cite anything that says this is also true for lay people?

Metta,
Paul. :)
I dont know of anything in the Pali canon that specifically says lay people can or cannot eat/buy meat. As you know it is explicitly stated for monastics.
In the Āmagandha Sutta, the Buddha recalls a story from the previous Buddha, Kassapa Buddha, which seems to imply that eating meat does not count as one of the five precepts for laypeople or as an "unskillful" action per se.

Taking life, beating, wounding, binding, stealing, lying, deceiving,
worthless knowledge, adultery; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
5. In this world those individuals who are unrestrained in sensual pleasures, who are greedy
for sweet things, who are associated with impure actions, who are of nihilistic views,
[which are] crooked and difficult to follow, this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
6. In this world those who are rude, arrogant, backbiting, treacherous, unkind, excessively
egoistic, miserly, and do not give anything to anybody; this is stench. Not the eating of
meat.
7. Anger, pride, obstinacy, antagonism, deceit, envy, boasting, excessive egoism, association
with the immoral; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
8. Those who are of bad morals, refuse to pay their debts, slanderous, deceitful in their
dealings, pretentious, those who in this world, being the vilest of men, commit such
wrong things; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
9. Those person who, in this world, are uncontrolled towards living beings, who are bent
on injuring others, having taken their belongings; immoral, cruel, harsh, disrespectful;
this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
10. Those who attack these living beings either out of greed or of hostility and are always
bent upon evil, go to darkness after death, and fall headlong into woeful states; this is
stench. Not the eating of meat.
11. Abstaining from fish and meat, nakedness, shaving of the head, matted hair, smearing
with ashes, wearing rough deerskins, attending the sacrificial fire; none of the various
penances in the world performed for unhealthy ends, neither incantations, oblations,
sacrifices nor seasonal observances, purify a person who has not overcome his doubts.
http://www.aimwell.org/Amagandha%20Sutta.pdf
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by TRobinson465 »

robertk wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:22 am
retrofuturist wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:08 am Greetings,
TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:28 pm As long as the meat comes from an animal that is already dead its fine in Theravada Buddhism. You cant order like a live fish or lobster that will die after you order it.
That may be true for monastics... can you cite anything that says this is also true for lay people?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Absolutely true for Buddhist laypeople. However the naked asecetics and others of wrong view thought differently.
http://www.aimwell.org/siha.html
this is probably an even better example than mine lol.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Spiny Norman »

user99 wrote: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:53 pm Its forbidden to order Meat and eat it so i Wonder this
Not explicitly, though I think it's worth considering:

1. The first precept, not to take life;
2. Dealing in butchery as an example of wrong livelihood;
3. The path factor of Right Intention, which includes developing harmlessness.

Note that if you choose to buy meat, then you are expecting somebody else to break the first precept and deal in butchery. Also you are causing harm indirectly. I think most people here will have access to non-meat products, so there is a choice for most.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Spiny Norman »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:08 am That may be true for monastics... can you cite anything that says this is also true for lay people?
The five precepts are based on the principle of harmlessness, which is an aspect of Right Intention. As is the 3-fold rule.

It's important to consider the spirit of such teachings, and not just the letter.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Vegetarians and depression

Post by Spiny Norman »

Eating ice-cream always cheers me up. :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
pitakele
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by pitakele »

Dinsdale wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:33 amIt's important to consider the spirit of such teachings, and not just the letter.
Even though Buddha didn't teach his followers to be vegetarian, I think it important to be thoughtful about one's consumer habits. In modern times, most of us are very removed from the mass means of producing food, esp. the production of a huge variety of flesh foods. In a way, it is similar to removing the aged, dying and mentally ill to institutions - out of sight, out of mind. We don't confront reality and this can be a condition to grow ignorance. Flesh foods are bought in supermarkets etc. which promotes a false sense of distance from the fact that beings have lost their lives due to (largely) the demand of consumers. Not only has a being lost its life to become someone's meal, but also that meal has been provided by an unfortunate individual with wrong livelihood who is making bad kamma by intentionally killing living beings. Even though some justify eating flesh saying they haven't seen, heard or suspect it being killed for them (tikoti is a ruling for Sangha, not laity), that food has arrived as as a result of another's bad kamma. Are we really happy to have someone make bad kamma on our behalf (despite the seeming degrees of separation)? As samsāra is fraught with many pitfalls and dangers, it is wise to train as much as possible in thoughtfulness.
aniccā vata saṇkhārā - tesaṁ vūpasamo sukho
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Spiny Norman »

pitakele wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:51 pm In modern times, most of us are very removed from the mass means of producing food, esp. the production of a huge variety of flesh foods.
I suspect there would be more vegetarians if everybody had to slaughter and prepare their own meat.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
pitakele
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by pitakele »

Dinsdale wrote: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:48 am I suspect there would be more vegetarians if everybody had to slaughter and prepare their own meat.
Yes, everything is extremely sanitized these days in the West with most meat purchases pre-wrapped in the supermarket, minus the sights and smells of a butcher's shop.
aniccā vata saṇkhārā - tesaṁ vūpasamo sukho
User avatar
AgarikaJ
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:21 pm
Location: Germany, Nong Bua Lamphu (Thailand)

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by AgarikaJ »

Dinsdale wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:32 am
user99 wrote: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:53 pm Its forbidden to order Meat and eat it so i Wonder this
Not explicitly, though I think it's worth considering:

1. The first precept, not to take life;
2. Dealing in butchery as an example of wrong livelihood;
3. The path factor of Right Intention, which includes developing harmlessness.

Note that if you choose to buy meat, then you are expecting somebody else to break the first precept and deal in butchery. Also you are causing harm indirectly. I think most people here will have access to non-meat products, so there is a choice for most.
As always, I believe intention to be the measuring quality. If the OP already has to ask the question, I think he has also already recognized that there is a problem with consuming meat.

While in Thailand, quite often I was asked to hold the cow or even deal the blow when there was a slaughter, so that the bad Kamma will not befall any of the villagers. This is a very simplified and legalistic view of the Teachings which falls down when looking at the intent of minimizing harm.

Therefore I think Dinsdale has put it succinctly.

Knowing this, one might still choose to eat meat; the Teachings give this latitude as everything boils down to personal responsibility for ones own (spiritual) well-being.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]
cookiemonster
Posts: 252
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster »

user99 wrote: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:53 pm Its forbidden to order Meat and eat it so i Wonder this
It is not forbidden to laypeople.
cookiemonster
Posts: 252
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster »

pitakele wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:51 pm
Dinsdale wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:33 amIt's important to consider the spirit of such teachings, and not just the letter.
Even though Buddha didn't teach his followers to be vegetarian, I think it important to be thoughtful about one's consumer habits. In modern times, most of us are very removed from the mass means of producing food, esp. the production of a huge variety of flesh foods. In a way, it is similar to removing the aged, dying and mentally ill to institutions - out of sight, out of mind. We don't confront reality and this can be a condition to grow ignorance. Flesh foods are bought in supermarkets etc. which promotes a false sense of distance from the fact that beings have lost their lives due to (largely) the demand of consumers. Not only has a being lost its life to become someone's meal, but also that meal has been provided by an unfortunate individual with wrong livelihood who is making bad kamma by intentionally killing living beings. Even though some justify eating flesh saying they haven't seen, heard or suspect it being killed for them (tikoti is a ruling for Sangha, not laity), that food has arrived as as a result of another's bad kamma. Are we really happy to have someone make bad kamma on our behalf (despite the seeming degrees of separation)? As samsāra is fraught with many pitfalls and dangers, it is wise to train as much as possible in thoughtfulness.
This could also apply to vegetable foods, in light of the Vinaya rule: "The damaging of a living plant is to be confessed."
User avatar
pitakele
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by pitakele »

cookiemonster wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:29 pm
This could also apply to vegetable foods, in light of the Vinaya rule: "The damaging of a living plant is to be confessed."
The vinaya rules regarding not damaging vegetables, seeds & crops have mostly been instigated so to not offend laypeople,. e.g. farmers, not because there is anything instrinsically akusala in these actions (although being mindful of others' sensitivities & protecting the environment etc. can be done with kusala intentions). The qualitative difference with flesh foods is that killing of living beings is required. No matter which way this is rationalized, someone along the way is making bad kamma. Saṃsāra is, indeed, problematic 😊
Last edited by pitakele on Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
aniccā vata saṇkhārā - tesaṁ vūpasamo sukho
User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by StormBorn »

Buying meat in a food store definitely creates a demand. :popcorn: That demand creates a supply. The supplier kills beings. :pig: Therefore, the buyer has a hand in that killing. :stirthepot: Period.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
cookiemonster
Posts: 252
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster »

pitakele wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:24 pm
cookiemonster wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:29 pm
This could also apply to vegetable foods, in light of the Vinaya rule: "The damaging of a living plant is to be confessed."
The vinaya rules regarding not damaging vegetables, seeds & crops have mostly been instigated so to not offend laypeople,. e.g. farmers, not because there is anything instrinsically akusala in these actions (although being mindful of others' sensitivities & protecting the environment etc. can be done with kusala intentions). The qualitative difference with flesh foods is that killing of living beings is required. No matter which way this is rationalized, someone along the way is making bad kamma. Saṃsāra is, indeed, problematic 😊
I thought committing an pacittiya offense is intrinsically akusala.
Post Reply