The benefits of silence

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auto
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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by auto » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:39 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:26 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:31 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:26 am

You could say that I am looking at experience, not looking for something. If I am looking for something, it can only be an idea and not immediately present.
Indeed, but there is always an element of intention in every act of paying attention; given that you are looking at experience, why have you chosen to look at particular bits of the world rather than other bits? Why, for example, did you choose Dhamma Wheel rather than another part of the internet, or why the internet rather than switch off and look at flowers or the wall in front of you?

Just a thought, but could it be that you are looking for social situations where you can talk to people like you have heard UG talk? Situations that allow you to parry questions and remain non-committal, while sounding as if you know something that others don't know?
For me, the act of paying attention is the intention. Attention is attentive to all parts. Some parts demand action while others don't.
Some questions demand a reply. If you hold up an image of how someone is supposed to be or how you think they should be, it is a disservice to all.
it seem its parry questions..

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Thus, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Purana Kassapa answered with non-action. Just as if a person, when asked about a mango, were to answer with a breadfruit; or, when asked about a breadfruit, were to answer with a mango: In the same way, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Purana Kassapa answered with non-action. The thought occurred to me: 'How can anyone like me think of disparaging a brahman or contemplative living in his realm?'
Yet I neither delighted in Purana Kassapa's words nor did I protest against them. Neither delighting nor protesting, I was dissatisfied. Without expressing dissatisfaction, without accepting his teaching, without adopting it, I got up from my seat and left.
that said great king Ajatasattu

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Sam Vara
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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:07 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:26 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:31 am


Indeed, but there is always an element of intention in every act of paying attention; given that you are looking at experience, why have you chosen to look at particular bits of the world rather than other bits? Why, for example, did you choose Dhamma Wheel rather than another part of the internet, or why the internet rather than switch off and look at flowers or the wall in front of you?

Just a thought, but could it be that you are looking for social situations where you can talk to people like you have heard UG talk? Situations that allow you to parry questions and remain non-committal, while sounding as if you know something that others don't know?
For me, the act of paying attention is the intention. Attention is attentive to all parts. Some parts demand action while others don't.
Some questions demand a reply. If you hold up an image of how someone is supposed to be or how you think they should be, it is a disservice to all.
You are right, paying attention is the intention, but it is not the whole of the intention. There would also be the intention around where to direct the attention. Presumably you, like me, make choices to log on, then go to certain sites, then to look at certain threads rather than others. That's not "all parts". We are deliberately excluding huge areas of potential experience, and narrowing down what we attend to.

I'm not sure of the relevance of the bit about "holding up an image", etc. And, if I have understood it correctly, I disagree. I constantly hold up images of how people should be. (I may not do it very well, but I try my best!) Here on DW I try to get people to be civil, relevant, etc; and I'm constantly telling my children how they should behave. I want them to be good, not bad.

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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:19 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:26 am
You could say that I am looking at experience...
Which is pretty much what Buddhist insight practice entails.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Saengnapha
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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:18 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:07 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:26 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:31 am


Indeed, but there is always an element of intention in every act of paying attention; given that you are looking at experience, why have you chosen to look at particular bits of the world rather than other bits? Why, for example, did you choose Dhamma Wheel rather than another part of the internet, or why the internet rather than switch off and look at flowers or the wall in front of you?

Just a thought, but could it be that you are looking for social situations where you can talk to people like you have heard UG talk? Situations that allow you to parry questions and remain non-committal, while sounding as if you know something that others don't know?
For me, the act of paying attention is the intention. Attention is attentive to all parts. Some parts demand action while others don't.
Some questions demand a reply. If you hold up an image of how someone is supposed to be or how you think they should be, it is a disservice to all.
You are right, paying attention is the intention, but it is not the whole of the intention. There would also be the intention around where to direct the attention. Presumably you, like me, make choices to log on, then go to certain sites, then to look at certain threads rather than others. That's not "all parts". We are deliberately excluding huge areas of potential experience, and narrowing down what we attend to.

I'm not sure of the relevance of the bit about "holding up an image", etc. And, if I have understood it correctly, I disagree. I constantly hold up images of how people should be. (I may not do it very well, but I try my best!) Here on DW I try to get people to be civil, relevant, etc; and I'm constantly telling my children how they should behave. I want them to be good, not bad.
The choices that we make are based on our interests. I've always been interested in certain Buddhist teachings, not particularly Theravada. I wanted to learn a bit more and I have. After all, I live in Theravadaville, in a sense. I'm not sure why you are asking me this in relation to my response to Pseudobabble. I was trying to be concise with my reply to him. You seem to be turning this into a personal view of the way I reply. That is what I meant by holding up an image of me. You associate me with a certain view of yours. I don't know why you would even bring this up and then analyze why I do what I do. What does this have to do with answering Pseudobabble? What am I being non committal about?

Personally, I won't comment on how you raise your kids and how you relate to others. It would be quite off topic.

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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:27 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:19 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:26 am
You could say that I am looking at experience...
Which is pretty much what Buddhist insight practice entails.
I'm not trying to be rude or clever when I say most of the people that post here don't practice this way and are not really interested or 'ready' for insight. Insight is radical not therapeutic.

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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:58 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:18 pm

The choices that we make are based on our interests. I've always been interested in certain Buddhist teachings, not particularly Theravada. I wanted to learn a bit more and I have. After all, I live in Theravadaville, in a sense.
Yes, thanks - that makes sense.
I'm not sure why you are asking me this in relation to my response to Pseudobabble.
The forum isn't a series of discrete dialogues, and I was interested in your response to that question. I'm interested in how that response relates to some of the other posts you have made here, as they seem to ignore desire and agency.
You seem to be turning this into a personal view of the way I reply. That is what I meant by holding up an image of me. You associate me with a certain view of yours. I don't know why you would even bring this up and then analyze why I do what I do.
It's only a "personal" view in the sense that a person (me!) holds that view. I bring it up because your response would be useful in showing how your criticisms of Theravadan doctrine and practice undermine themselves.
Personally, I won't comment on how you raise your kids and how you relate to others. It would be quite off topic.
Of course. I was merely using that as an example of how I'm perfectly at ease with holding up an image of how people should be.

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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:18 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:58 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:18 pm

The choices that we make are based on our interests. I've always been interested in certain Buddhist teachings, not particularly Theravada. I wanted to learn a bit more and I have. After all, I live in Theravadaville, in a sense.
Yes, thanks - that makes sense.
I'm not sure why you are asking me this in relation to my response to Pseudobabble.
The forum isn't a series of discrete dialogues, and I was interested in your response to that question. I'm interested in how that response relates to some of the other posts you have made here, as they seem to ignore desire and agency.
You seem to be turning this into a personal view of the way I reply. That is what I meant by holding up an image of me. You associate me with a certain view of yours. I don't know why you would even bring this up and then analyze why I do what I do.
It's only a "personal" view in the sense that a person (me!) holds that view. I bring it up because your response would be useful in showing how your criticisms of Theravadan doctrine and practice undermine themselves.
Personally, I won't comment on how you raise your kids and how you relate to others. It would be quite off topic.
Of course. I was merely using that as an example of how I'm perfectly at ease with holding up an image of how people should be.
Since you mention it again, where do we get the idea of how people should be? Isn't this a constructed image based on past experiences and memory, a conditioned response? Isn't this the kind of thing that causes dukkha? When the reality doesn't match the image, there is suffering, disappointment, dissatisfaction. There is no love if that image is messed with. How can you be perfectly at ease with an image? You wind up defending it or attacking with it. Perhaps your choice of words are not describing what you really mean.

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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:57 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:18 pm
Since you mention it again, where do we get the idea of how people should be? Isn't this a constructed image based on past experiences and memory, a conditioned response?
Yes, that's what it is.
Isn't this the kind of thing that causes dukkha?
No, not unless there is greed, hatred, or delusion present, I think. Sometimes it can be the kind of thing which causes the cessation of dukkha.
When the reality doesn't match the image, there is suffering, disappointment, dissatisfaction.
Not always. I've often found that the mis-match between the image and the reality can give rise to positive states such as "renunciate sadness". And I have often found positive role models and positive aspirations to be very useful.
How can you be perfectly at ease with an image? You wind up defending it or attacking with it.
Perhaps, but defending one's virtues and attacking one's faults is a pretty good if simplified version of Right Effort.
Perhaps your choice of words are not describing what you really mean.
Perhaps, but I think I'm doing OK...

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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by binocular » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:09 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:18 pm
Since you mention it again, where do we get the idea of how people should be? Isn't this a constructed image based on past experiences and memory, a conditioned response? Isn't this the kind of thing that causes dukkha? When the reality doesn't match the image, there is suffering, disappointment, dissatisfaction. There is no love if that image is messed with. How can you be perfectly at ease with an image? You wind up defending it or attacking with it.
A high score on the right-wing authoritarian scale is the answer to your questions.
Right-wing authoritarianism (RWA) is a personality and ideological variable studied in political, social and personality psychology. Right-wing authoritarians are people who have a high degree of willingness to submit to authorities they perceive as established and legitimate, who adhere to societal conventions and norms and who are hostile and punitive in their attitudes towards people who do not adhere to them. They value uniformity and are in favour of using group authority, including coercion, to achieve it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-win ... itarianism
If you google it, you can also find a lot of studies linking religiosity and high scores on the right-wing authoritarian scale.

When the reality doesn't match the image, there is suffering, disappointment, dissatisfaction.
I find that this objection to having expectations about how people should be can be misleading.

Having expectations about how people should be can be of (at least) two sources:
1. a mental state of uncertainty, insufficiency (where the expector relies on other people to be a particular way),
2. a sense of entitlement (where the expector doesn't rely on other people to be a particular way, but believes they owe it to him to be that way).

For the expector who operates out of entitlement, the suffering, disappointment, dissatisfaction is nil or minimal when people don't live up to his expectations; instead, in that situation, he experiences contempt for them or righteous indignation (or perhaps pity, if he's having a particularly good day). Basically, he feels good even when other people don't live up to his standards (which he may portray/justify as society's standards, and not his own).

It is the expector who operates out of a mental state of uncertainty, insufficiency who feels less or more intense distress, negative emotions when other people don't live up to his expectations.
Last edited by binocular on Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by binocular » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:10 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:57 pm
Not always. I've often found that the mis-match between the image and the reality can give rise to positive states such as "renunciate sadness".
A lay having renunciate sadness??

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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:27 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:10 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:57 pm
Not always. I've often found that the mis-match between the image and the reality can give rise to positive states such as "renunciate sadness".
A lay having renunciate sadness??
Yes, why not? Nekkhamasitam domanassam is renunciate, as opposed to renunciant, sadness, grief, or distress.

Saengnapha
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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:30 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:27 pm
binocular wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:10 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:57 pm
Not always. I've often found that the mis-match between the image and the reality can give rise to positive states such as "renunciate sadness".
A lay having renunciate sadness??
Yes, why not? Nekkhamasitam domanassam is renunciate, as opposed to renunciant, sadness, grief, or distress.
Now, you are defending your image as I said earlier. Your position is quite weak and only applicable in an intellectual way. Reality has a way of taking away all of this superficiality that we hide behind.

This thread has been hijacked by our moderator who cannot moderate himself! :tongue:

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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:22 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:30 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:27 pm
binocular wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:10 pm

A lay having renunciate sadness??
Yes, why not? Nekkhamasitam domanassam is renunciate, as opposed to renunciant, sadness, grief, or distress.
Now, you are defending your image as I said earlier. Your position is quite weak and only applicable in an intellectual way. Reality has a way of taking away all of this superficiality that we hide behind.

This thread has been hijacked by our moderator who cannot moderate himself! :tongue:
Sorry, you've lost me here. What image am I supposed to be defending? I've explained that I think that the idea of "renunciate sadness/grief/distress" applies to lay people as well as monastics. What does this have to do with "my image"?

And what does moderation have to do with anything here? Do you think anything I have said breaches the ToS?

Saengnapha
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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:03 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:22 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:30 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:27 pm


Yes, why not? Nekkhamasitam domanassam is renunciate, as opposed to renunciant, sadness, grief, or distress.
Now, you are defending your image as I said earlier. Your position is quite weak and only applicable in an intellectual way. Reality has a way of taking away all of this superficiality that we hide behind.

This thread has been hijacked by our moderator who cannot moderate himself! :tongue:
Sorry, you've lost me here. What image am I supposed to be defending? I've explained that I think that the idea of "renunciate sadness/grief/distress" applies to lay people as well as monastics. What does this have to do with "my image"?

And what does moderation have to do with anything here? Do you think anything I have said breaches the ToS?
I think you've been lost so don't blame it on me. :focus:

Saengnapha
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Re: The benefits of silence

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:19 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:09 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:18 pm
Since you mention it again, where do we get the idea of how people should be? Isn't this a constructed image based on past experiences and memory, a conditioned response? Isn't this the kind of thing that causes dukkha? When the reality doesn't match the image, there is suffering, disappointment, dissatisfaction. There is no love if that image is messed with. How can you be perfectly at ease with an image? You wind up defending it or attacking with it.
A high score on the right-wing authoritarian scale is the answer to your questions.
Right-wing authoritarianism (RWA) is a personality and ideological variable studied in political, social and personality psychology. Right-wing authoritarians are people who have a high degree of willingness to submit to authorities they perceive as established and legitimate, who adhere to societal conventions and norms and who are hostile and punitive in their attitudes towards people who do not adhere to them. They value uniformity and are in favour of using group authority, including coercion, to achieve it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-win ... itarianism
If you google it, you can also find a lot of studies linking religiosity and high scores on the right-wing authoritarian scale.

When the reality doesn't match the image, there is suffering, disappointment, dissatisfaction.
I find that this objection to having expectations about how people should be can be misleading.

Having expectations about how people should be can be of (at least) two sources:
1. a mental state of uncertainty, insufficiency (where the expector relies on other people to be a particular way),
2. a sense of entitlement (where the expector doesn't rely on other people to be a particular way, but believes they owe it to him to be that way).

For the expector who operates out of entitlement, the suffering, disappointment, dissatisfaction is nil or minimal when people don't live up to his expectations; instead, in that situation, he experiences contempt for them or righteous indignation (or perhaps pity, if he's having a particularly good day). Basically, he feels good even when other people don't live up to his standards (which he may portray/justify as society's standards, and not his own).

It is the expector who operates out of a mental state of uncertainty, insufficiency who feels less or more intense distress, negative emotions when other people don't live up to his expectations.
Have we established that Sam Vara is a fascist? I think a lot of his responses show this to be the case. But, maybe there is some intelligence in his point of view that we don't see? Perhaps the fascist right wing have it right. Are we mistaken?

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