Why one meal a day?

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daverupa
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby daverupa » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:40 am

Indrajala wrote:
BuddhaSoup wrote: The assembled monks agreed that the recitations were accurate. These recitations became the basis for the Sutta-pitika and the Vinaya-pitika of the Pali Tipitika."


Even if we accept this, it still doesn't address the autocratic decision made by Mahākassapa. Ānanda provided a reliable testimony where the Buddha is said to have stated the minor rules were to be dropped. The Buddha was fine with reform.


It's quite true, and I think Buddhist monasticism will need to look different in the future in order to best exist alongside lay support... unless, you think monasteries should seek moderate self-sufficiency as a general rule? Farming, investment, etc. alongside donations?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

dagon
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby dagon » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:49 am

Indrajala wrote:
BuddhaSoup wrote: The assembled monks agreed that the recitations were accurate. These recitations became the basis for the Sutta-pitika and the Vinaya-pitika of the Pali Tipitika."


Even if we accept this, it still doesn't address the autocratic decision made by Mahākassapa. Ānanda provided a reliable testimony where the Buddha is said to have stated the minor rules were to be dropped. The Buddha was fine with reform.

I don't understand the level of attachment a lot of members here show towards archaic regulations. Most Theravada bhikkhus I know are pretty relaxed.

No need to be more Catholic than the Pope. :sage:


Ven Indrajala - perhaps you could help me - i was taught that The Buddha said that the minor rule could be dropped, whereas you have stated were to be dropped. i think that there is a very significant difference between to two options.

paul

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:35 pm

There are about 227 rules in the Vinaya, an example of a minor rule might be the rule aginast picking flowers or killing plants for monks, that's a minor rule, perhaps, The 10 precepts for monks are not minor rules at all, and when the Buddha said some minor rules could be left behind, I'm fairly certain he wasn't in any way refering to the 10 precepts, which are Major rules. In any case as I remember it the monks had a council after the buddha made this statement and decided not to change any of the rules, obviously the buddha didn't tell them outright to drop the minor rules, otherwise they would have done so.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Indrajala
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:47 pm

daverupa wrote:It's quite true, and I think Buddhist monasticism will need to look different in the future in order to best exist alongside lay support... unless, you think monasteries should seek moderate self-sufficiency as a general rule? Farming, investment, etc. alongside donations?


In the west when funding from immigrants and Asia dry up, then monastics will have to be partially or fully self-sufficient. Think growing food (tilling the earth), selling speciality products (like Christian monastics: honey, cheese, etc.) and not relying on handouts. I don't see western cultures supporting Vinaya monasticism in the long-term.

How many of the big monasteries in the west are primarily funded by western benefactors, I wonder? Not many.

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Anagarika
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Anagarika » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:19 pm

I see the above as two different questions. Whether a monk should abstain from sex, not eat after midday, maintain a shaved head (and no longer than 2 fingers' length), wear robes, sleep in a low and simple bed, etc, etc is a different question than how monasteries in the west will adapt to changing support environments. Some of the minor rules or functional rules may need to be adapted to economic circumstances. I still do not see a day when good bhikkhus and bhikkhunis give up the precepts on an ad hoc bases. There are sound reasons for the maintenance of the behavioral precepts, and I and others have written enough on the issue. It's still my view that the evolution away from the Vinaya precepts (and the Bodhisattva precepts for that matter) has been a primary cause of some of the dysfunction in Buddhist communities in the west. So many of the abuses of trust and scandals have centered around disregard for the major precepts. Maintenance of the major precepts instills confidence and trust, both within the monk, and within the sangha that includes the laity. To suggest otherwise is a laissez-faire approach that leads to troublesome events.

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Indrajala
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:27 pm

BuddhaSoup wrote:It's still my view that the evolution away from the Vinaya precepts (and the Bodhisattva precepts for that matter) has been a primary cause of some of the dysfunction in Buddhist communities in the west.


Buddhism in the west is largely a fringe religion amongst native westerners, so it attracts fringe people, not ordinary folk. That's why you get a lot of crazies and unsettled people who with our without the Vinaya will cause trouble.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:39 pm

Yeah we from time to time get them on these forums!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Indrajala
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:14 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Yeah we from time to time get them on these forums!!!


Guilty as charged. :toast:

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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby SarathW » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:04 am

Cittasanto wrote:
SarathW wrote:Q1:Will the lay Stream-winner eat after midday?
This question is based on :
===========================

Verse 11: Scrupulous Integrity
Another special quality of a Stream-winner is transparent honesty and scrupulous integrity. Although they are not yet free from greed, hatred, and delusion, Stream-winners are completely free from immorality. A monk who is a Stream-winner may sometimes fall into offences due to heedlessness, but when reminded that such an action is an offence against a training rule laid down by the Buddha, or realising this by himself on reflection, he does not conceal it, but makes amends in the prescribed way. One who wishes to attain Stream-winning should be equally scrupulous, seeing fear in the slightest fault.

For example: to eat after midday is an offence for a bhikkhu. Each mouthful taken is an offence to be confessed (pācittiya). If he thinks it is before midday when it is not, it is still an offence. If it is before midday, but he thinks it is after midday, or he is doubtful, it is an offence of wrong-doing (dukkata). A Stream-winner would not take a single morsel of food if he thought it was after midday, as to do so would be shameless. Due to unmindfulness he might do so, but afterwards he would confess his offence. Stream-winners have a keen desire to follow the training rules and readily confess their offences if they do fall into any — they are not disobedient.
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Ratana/ratana.html

yes if they have undertaken the eight precepts, but no if they have undertaken the five!



Thanks Cittasanto. I have some further questions.

Q2:Will the lay once returner (Sakdagami) eat after midday?
Q3:Will the lay Non returner (Anagami) eat after midday?
Q4)Will the lay Arahnat eat after midday?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

primitiveresonance
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Re: Why one meal a day?

Postby primitiveresonance » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:05 pm

I don't think one meal a day is unhealthy. I think it is healthier than to have many meals a day. Of course some snacks may be needed if one is being very active physically.

I'm eating a good meal finishnig at 12:00am and having a salad in the evening. I have developed a clearer understanding about food and nutrition while following this one-meal-program (ok, I take the salad so it's not really only one meal). Food gives deeper satisfaction and I don't go after the taste (sensual craving) which is not the important part of eating. The actual substance that goes to the belly and is being digested is. One meal a day gives enough time for the digestion to finish the previous intake before next one. That's very good for health.

I have more energy because it is not wated in digesting too much food that would be the case with two or three daily meals. My mind/senses are more at ease and clear. Thinking is also more clear than with more food or with dead animals in my food.

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jungblood
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One meal a day... at night?

Postby jungblood » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:38 am

Howdy folks,

So as I understand it, Buddha said that the Vinaya should be adapted as different times and contexts required, right? I'm a lay practitioner, but I like to incorporate the Vinaya into my life in my own modest and imperfect way... one way I'm doing this is by sticking to one meal a day... Though most monasteries take this meal between sunrise and noon, I'm having my daily meal in the evening instead... this is because I exercise in the morning before work, so I need to get some fuel the night before (otherwise I might have gone without food for 17 or 18 hours, and be barely able to run to the end of the street... :shrug:

Has anyone else sought to adapt Buddha's dietary guidance in this way? I'd love to hear the experience of others...

Deep bows,
Lucas
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'Trading candy for gold': http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... candy.html

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fivebells
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Re: One meal a day... at night?

Postby fivebells » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:41 am

I know from experience that it's perfectly possible to run when you haven't eaten for 24 hours. I do it regularly. Have you experimented with that?

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cooran
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Re: One meal a day... at night?

Postby cooran » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:48 am

Hello jungblood,

My understanding is that The Vinaya contains the rules for ordained sangha members - unless you are a Bhikkhu, you can eat when you prefer.

With metta,
Chris
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Re: One meal a day... at night?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:50 am

Greetings Jungblood,

I used to do that at a time when I did not exercise. The reason I chose dinner time was because it was the one meal I would eat with my family during the week, whereas breakfast and lunch (and the decision whether to have them at all) were more personal decisions.

It worked well for me at the time, and I dropped from 85kg to 73kg at a rate of roughly 1.0 kg per week. Once I got to 73, I plateaud.

Now I'm actually physically active, I eat 2-3 meals a day, but always dinner. For a monk, once a day should be fine (especially given how much food they tend to get offered).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

“One to whom it might occur, ‘I’m a woman’ or ‘I’m a man’. Or ‘I’m anything at all’— Is fit for Mara to address.” (SN 5.2)

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kmath
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Re: One meal a day... at night?

Postby kmath » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:42 am

It's important to consider why monks only eat once a day. We're told it's so as to minimize strain on the lay people. If lay people are not supporting you, I don't see the rational for it.

Secondly, from a health standpoint, not eating after exercise can be counter-productive. Your body needs calories after a work-out otherwise it start breaking down muscle, which you don't want.

I'm speaking from experience here, I strongly advise you not to go down this road, especially at your age. You're still growing. You could end up with an eating disorder. People will disagree with me here but it's not a good idea.

:anjali:

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Sokehi
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Re: One meal a day... at night?

Postby Sokehi » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:22 pm

kmath wrote:It's important to consider why monks only eat once a day. We're told it's so as to minimize strain on the lay people. If lay people are not supporting you, I don't see the rational for it.

Secondly, from a health standpoint, not eating after exercise can be counter-productive. Your body needs calories after a work-out otherwise it start breaking down muscle, which you don't want.

I'm speaking from experience here, I strongly advise you not to go down this road, especially at your age. You're still growing. You could end up with an eating disorder. People will disagree with me here but it's not a good idea.

:anjali:


very good posting.

At least you should prepare a (green) smoothie in the morning. I do so, drinking two liters of fruits, spinach with added soy milk from the morning to midday. Then in the afternoon you can have your one meal.

But still: the buddha developed this particular rule to minimize strain on the lay people. There is absolutely no point with regards to the buddhas teaching for you to do this unless you are a monastic.

Be nice to yourself.

:anjali:
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What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Re: One meal a day... at night?

Postby Zom » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:16 pm

For a long time I practise moderation in food this way: I eat once a day after ~5 hours after waking up. No matter when I wake up - at 6 am, at 9 am or at 1 pm ). This works perfect for me.

PS: Yes, I do agree that this practice should be undertaken with care and only when you are ready for it - that is - when you really feel comfortable with such schedule. Forceful suppression is not a way.

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jungblood
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Re: One meal a day... at night?

Postby jungblood » Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:23 am

Thanks everyone for your input... some real food for thought (no pun intended).. I wasn't aware that the Vinaya guidelines on meals were intended to ease strain on lay supporters... in my case food is central sense pleasure fixation - though I'm lucky that I dont put on weight, I'm conscious that I eat for pleasure in a way that is not helpful in my spiritual practise, so I want to put some healthy discipline on the issue... I'm thinking I'll go for one small 'recovery' protein and vitamin meal after exercise, and my main meal late afternoon - that's what's best for my body.... :thanks:
'Renunciation' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl036.html
'Trading candy for gold': http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... candy.html

'The more we really know the Dhamma, the more we can let go. Those who know a little can let go of a little; those who know a lot can let go of a lot.' - Ajaan Lee

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: One meal a day... at night?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:40 am

Wisely reflecting, I use this food not for fun, not for pleasure, not for fattening, not for beautification, but only for the maintenance and nourishment of this body, for keeping it healthy, for helping with the Spiritual Life; Thinking thus, I will allay hunger without overeating, so that I may continue to live blamelessly and at ease.

Paṭisaṅkhā yoniso piṇḍapātaṃ paṭisevāmi: neva davāya na madāya na maṇḍanāya na vibhūsanāya, yāvadeva imassa kāyassa ṭhitiyā yāpanāya vihiṃsūparatiyā brahmacariyānuggahāya iti purāṇañca vedanaṃ paṭihaṅkhāmi, navañca vedanaṃ na uppādessāmi, yātrā ca me bhavissati anavajjatā ca phāsuvihāro cā’ti.
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retrofuturist
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Re: One meal a day... at night?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:17 am

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

“One to whom it might occur, ‘I’m a woman’ or ‘I’m a man’. Or ‘I’m anything at all’— Is fit for Mara to address.” (SN 5.2)


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