health and celibacy

A place to discuss health and fitness, healthy diets. A fit body makes for a fit mind.
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Sam Vara
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Re: health and celibacy

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:28 am

Aloka wrote:
binocular wrote: Men generally prefer stupid women who will gladly risk their own health and life, and the health and life of the unborn.
In my own experience as a woman, that's complete nonsense - and its really sad if you feel that you've only ever had relationships with men like that, binocular.

:anjali:
In my own experience as a man, it's not true either. Nor does it make evolutionary sense, in that attractiveness and companionability are linked strongly to good health and survivability.

(Oh, and my wife says that I'm attracted to intelligent women...)

binocular
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Re: health and celibacy

Post by binocular » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:31 am

Sam Vara wrote:In my own experience as a man, it's not true either. Nor does it make evolutionary sense, in that attractiveness and companionability are linked strongly to good health and survivability.
(Oh, and my wife says that I'm attracted to intelligent women...)
Aloka wrote:In my own experience as a woman, that's complete nonsense - and its really sad if you feel that you've only ever had relationships with men like that, binocular.
As always, I can rely on your patronizing me and your political correctness.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: health and celibacy

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:37 am

binocular wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:In my own experience as a man, it's not true either. Nor does it make evolutionary sense, in that attractiveness and companionability are linked strongly to good health and survivability.
(Oh, and my wife says that I'm attracted to intelligent women...)
Aloka wrote:In my own experience as a woman, that's complete nonsense - and its really sad if you feel that you've only ever had relationships with men like that, binocular.
As always, I can rely on your patronizing me and your political correctness.
I'm not patronising you, binocular. I'm merely taking issue with a statement you made which I believe to be incorrect. That happens a lot on the internet, even on this forum. Nor am I being politically correct. In general, I take a fairly dim view of political correctness, and can't see how it applies in this case.

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DooDoot
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Re: health and celibacy

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:59 am

binocular wrote:Educate yourself about the health consequences of using hormonal contraceptives, having abortions, and giving birth. Perhaps also try to imagine what it is like to live in constant fear of unwanted pregnancy, all this as the price a woman has to pay to earn the man's "love".
Hormonal contraceptives & (widespread) abortions is basically a 50 year old phenomena, as old as my life. Sounds very socially & technologically engineered. As for giving birth, women have been seeking & doing this for thousands or millions of years.

Earn the man's love or earn his bank account, protection & labour? Generally, women are interested in mating (reproduction) & men are interested in sexual pleasure. Vain men are interested in sons. Generally, there is not really much 'love' involved, until they, if fortunate, mature into 'human'. Generally, it begins as basically 'blind' drives or instincts. Not much point in attributing blame to natural drives. Buddhism does not. Buddhism explains the blindness of ignorance is the "first cause". Have you heard about Dependent Origination, which explains this?

Well, at least that is one opinion of thousands more different opinions.
Men generally prefer stupid women who will gladly risk their own health and life, and the health and life of the unborn.
Buddhism encourages accepting personal responsibility for kamma. Blaming others for suffering is actually 'nihilism' (SN 12.17). As mentioned, SN 12.17 state suffering is caused by ignorance (rather than by 'oneself' or by 'others'). Most (but not all) women actually have natural reproductive drives to have children. In Buddhism, these drives are natural instincts (rather than personal intentions). If there appears to be some inherent 'cruelty' to this, it is nature's fault rather than a man's fault.

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Aloka
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Re: health and celibacy

Post by Aloka » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:20 am

binocular wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:In my own experience as a man, it's not true either. Nor does it make evolutionary sense, in that attractiveness and companionability are linked strongly to good health and survivability.
(Oh, and my wife says that I'm attracted to intelligent women...)
Aloka wrote:In my own experience as a woman, that's complete nonsense - and its really sad if you feel that you've only ever had relationships with men like that, binocular.
As always, I can rely on your patronizing me and your political correctness.
Your comments are way off the mark, Binocular. Its not my intention to patronise you nor to be politically correct. I'm simply expressing an opinion from my own experience.

Oh - and a male friend of mine who moved to another area was telling me in a phone conversation just recently, about how clever academically his new girlfriend is - and how he's attracted to intelligent women....

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Re: health and celibacy

Post by ToVincent » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:06 pm

There are two things that made me understand women (....... & men too).
The first was a study from Mattell, the toy company.
The second, was a Tv documentary on our cousins the monkeys.
The former came to the conclusion that women are socially more involved than men - by that they meant that the social involutions are much more intricate in women. To make it short, "the Sims" is more of a woman game, than a cow-boy costume.
The latter showed that female monkeys have a bipolar sort of behaviour.
Sometimes, they'll go for the "grooming" state; which implies that they elect in the group, a nice chap, not always particularly strong, or good looking. So the community dwells in a "grooministic" harmony of peace and love - and SUDDENLY - for some "intricate" social reason, they decide to trash the guy to a bunch of excited loonies in the group - who rip the shreds out of him. And then begins the "warfare" state. Then again, they trash the elected champion of the cause(?) [usually the stronger and meaner].
The cycle goes on and on, on behalf of their distaff social sensitiveness.
We are animals after all.
This is the way "it comes to be".

I would opt for celibacy, far away from the community. Just for the sake of my own health.

And don't get me wrong. Women & men should opt for that.
Making the citassa a liberated citta again.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
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And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
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https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Bundokji
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Re: health and celibacy

Post by Bundokji » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:37 am

khemindas wrote:In my opinion western medicine creates a big myth, about use of sex, and harm of his absence. And the second, even if sex would help to health , and his absence would harm, it would not important, because spiritual development is more important then health.
I could not agree more. Most people don't recognize that doctors and scientists are biased by their own beliefs especially in relation to sex.

Secular doctors would most likely argue that sex is healthy, and that circumcision is bad, and that homosexuality is normal. The opposite can be argued by religious doctors.

The notion that "sex is healthy" turns a blind eye on the amount of time, energy, resources and stress people go through to satisfy their sexual desires, and how this affects their health and well being.

Also it is very rare to see people talking about how sex is linked to identity and pride. I personally have sympathy to binocular's comment that men are attracted to stupid women, which i believe there is a grain of truth in it. It is not that men are attracted to stupid women, but the woman's level of intelligence is irrelevant when it comes to sex. I can claim with a great deal of certainty that most men have the ability to sleep with a woman without speaking a word with her. In many cases, talking can be a turn off for both sides.

And how all of this is linked to pride? imagine i go to a woman, and tell her frankly that i find her sexually attractive and that i want to sleep with her, and that i only care about her body and i don't give a shit about her brain. Most likely she would be offended and i would have zero chance of sleeping with her. This is how honesty and straightforwardness is repaid in sexual relationships.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Sam Vara
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Re: health and celibacy

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:10 pm

Bundokji wrote: I personally have sympathy to binocular's comment that men are attracted to stupid women, which i believe there is a grain of truth in it.
Of course men can be attracted to stupid women. But the comment in question was that men prefer stupid women. They might well prefer stupid women to involuntary celibacy or to some other non-sexual thing, but it is not the case that men prefer stupid women to more intelligent women. Not only is it proven by personal experience and anecdote, it would in evolutionary terms be a disaster for the species if this were generally true.
imagine i go to a woman, and tell her frankly that i find her sexually attractive and that i want to sleep with her, and that i only care about her body and i don't give a shit about her brain. Most likely she would be offended and i would have zero chance of sleeping with her. This is how honesty and straightforwardness is repaid in sexual relationships.
This is generally true, but the cultural background needs examining here. In many Western countries it would be possible to find these types of sexual relationships (i.e. based on sexual desire alone) with ease. Many people base an entire lifestyle around them.

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Bundokji
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Re: health and celibacy

Post by Bundokji » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:01 pm

Sam Vara wrote:Of course men can be attracted to stupid women. But the comment in question was that men prefer stupid women. They might well prefer stupid women to involuntary celibacy or to some other non-sexual thing, but it is not the case that men prefer stupid women to more intelligent women. Not only is it proven by personal experience and anecdote, it would in evolutionary terms be a disaster for the species if this were generally true.
I think the terms "stupidity" and "intelligence" can be used in many different ways, and in the context of binocular's input, she was using the word "stupid" referring to the health risks of making sex on women including the use of contraception and abortion implying that it is not worth it.

I said there is a grain of truth in what she said because a certain amount of stupidity is needed (from both, men and women) to engage in sex. I have an uncle who is a sex addict and slept with a lot of women throughout his life. He is not handsome, but a skillful liar, and his sweet talking enabled him to sleep with a lot of women.

Sartre was in love with Simone de Beauvoir and yet had many mistresses. He was once asked what does he do to keep all these women around him, and he said that he lies to them, then he was asked even to Simone de Beauvoir, and he answered "especially to Simone de Beauvoir". The inability to detect lies and to believe in romantic non sense is a form of stupidity.

Porno is a good place to explore human fantasies. One of the recurring themes in porn movies is that the woman is innocent and naive (in a childish way) and that the man "tricks them into sex". Many human beings seem to be pleased to exploit the weaknesses of each other.

If you look at women who are widely portrayed as "sexy" through media, it is not only that they don't seem intelligent, but i would argue that there seem to be a negative correlation between their sexiness and level of intelligence. Kim Kardadhian comes to mind, and the young model from the UK who got kidnapped in Italy recently (she was described as naive by her friend in an interview).

Evolution and sex are blind and futile forces that ensure the survival of the fittest, and equating the "fittest" with "intelligence" is a false equivalence in my opinion. What does it take to succeed and flourish in this world and to pass on your genes? If working 80 hours a week and to focus on status and physical beauty is intelligence, then Buddhist monks are the dumbest people on earth. It is also worth noting that fertility rate has a negative correlation with the level of education in both men and women.
This is generally true, but the cultural background needs examining here. In many Western countries it would be possible to find these types of sexual relationships (i.e. based on sexual desire alone) with ease. Many people base an entire lifestyle around them.
I agree that culture plays a role, but even in the west, women are expected to police their sexuality more than men. Feminists make a big fuss about objectifying women's bodies (as if the objectification is only coming from men). From my personal observations, women get offended if you only focus on their physical beauty. We are supposed to love them as a whole package especially their minds or their souls (whatever that means!).

Please note that i am not reducing relationship between men and women to lust, and i admit that there can be (and should be) respect and compassion between human beings. I also admit that intelligence can play an important role when we choose a long term partner, but sex is a small aspect (and i would say the least significant aspect) when we choose a partner. But when it comes to pure sex, intelligence is irrelevant at best and have a negative effect at worst.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Sam Vara
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Re: health and celibacy

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:42 pm

Bundokji wrote: I think the terms "stupidity" and "intelligence" can be used in many different ways
Indeed, it's all relative, isn't it? If one is averse to the idea of sex for some reason, then it is easy to portray it as both unintelligent, and harmful. But by the same token, the majority of people I know would consider that getting sex with desirable people takes intelligence and hard work - even if others culturally despise the manifestations of that intelligence. They would also point to the huge decline in deaths related to childbirth, and give thanks for the medical technology that made this happen. In my country, women live on average well into their ninth decade, and obstetric and contraception-related terms appear on only a tiny proportion of death certificates. They might well consider that a life of voluntary celibacy and childlessness is a life of pointless self-denial. Often, when we don't much care for what people do, we tend to call it unintelligent, or harmful in ways that they don't understand. But who gets to decide what intelligence is in this case, or what is harmful?

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Bundokji
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Re: health and celibacy

Post by Bundokji » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:04 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Bundokji wrote: I think the terms "stupidity" and "intelligence" can be used in many different ways
Indeed, it's all relative, isn't it? If one is averse to the idea of sex for some reason, then it is easy to portray it as both unintelligent, and harmful. But by the same token, the majority of people I know would consider that getting sex with desirable people takes intelligence and hard work - even if others culturally despise the manifestations of that intelligence. They would also point to the huge decline in deaths related to childbirth, and give thanks for the medical technology that made this happen. In my country, women live on average well into their ninth decade, and obstetric and contraception-related terms appear on only a tiny proportion of death certificates. They might well consider that a life of voluntary celibacy and childlessness is a life of pointless self-denial. Often, when we don't much care for what people do, we tend to call it unintelligent, or harmful in ways that they don't understand. But who gets to decide what intelligence is in this case, or what is harmful?
One of the main difficulties when having this kind of conversations is that we always have to make some sort of generalizations. When we speak of sex and health, each term can imply countless acts and meanings.

One way to decide what intelligence is or what is harmful is to look at the underlying intentions of the act. It is not necessarily the act itself, but why we do it and how we do it determine to a large extent the consequences of the action.

Generally speaking, the main motive behind seeking sex is sensual pleasure. If the well being of man depends on achieving sensual pleasure, then the likelihood of it becoming a cause of future pain is considerable.

There is also the question of opportunity cost. As you mentioned, "getting sex with desirable people takes intelligence and hard work" and every choice we make in our short life span comes at the expense of something else, so voluntary celibacy and childlessness are not necessarily pointless self-denial, but can be the wisdom of dedicating time and energy to a more worthy cause. Kamma is not only what we do, but what we don't do.

Also different stages in life imply different types of appropriate behavior as we mature and continue to learn. It can be argued that it is more natural and healthy for young people to explore sexual relationships that older ones. If my memory serves me correctly, in the hindu tradition, to seek sex and family life till the end of your twenties is considered appropriate. The Buddha himself lived this type of life until he was twenty nine years old.

When it comes to health, longevity can be misleading. What constitutes a healthy life is a very complicated topic, and yet, we are definitely not here to survive. Why do we want to live longer? having more sex does not seem to answer the question.

So, the question is not whether sex is healthy or harmful, but how to take its right place in the human life. As sex has the potential to be misused and harmful, also celibacy can be harmful if it becomes a form of suppression or done for the wrong reasons.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Sam Vara
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Re: health and celibacy

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:13 pm

Bundokji wrote: So, the question is not whether sex is healthy or harmful, but how to take its right place in the human life. As sex has the potential to be misused and harmful, also celibacy can be harmful if it becomes a form of suppression or done for the wrong reasons.
Yes, I agree, but there are of course all sorts of difficulties surrounding the term "right place". As followers of the Buddha, I think a useful course is to accommodate and ponder the rather negative view that he expressed about sex, without disparaging those who want those kinds of enjoyments.

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Re: health and celibacy

Post by mario92 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:47 am

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Where of an evening they gathered and carried away for supper, there next morning the rice stood ripe and grown again. Where in the morning they gathered and carried away for breakfast, there in the evening it stood ripe and grown again. No break was to be seen [where the husks had been broken off].

Then those beings feasting on this rice in the clearings, feeding on it, nourished by it, so continued for a long long while. And in measure as they, thus feeding, went on existing, so did the bodies of those beings become even more solid, and the divergence in their comeliness more pronounced. In the female appeared the distinctive features of the female, in the male those of the male. Then truly did woman contemplate man too closely, and man, woman. In them contemplating over much the one the other, passion arose and burning entered their body. They in consequence thereof followed their lusts. And beings seeing them so doing threw, some, sand, some, ashes, some, cowdung, crying: Perish, foul one! Perish, foul one! How can a being treat a being so? Even so now when men, in certain districts, when a bride is led away, throw either sand, or ashes, or cowdung, they do but follow an ancient enduring primordial form, not recognizing the significance thereof.

That which was reckoned immoral at that time, Vāseṭṭha, is now reckoned to be moral. Those beings who at that time followed their lusts, were not allowed to enter village or town either for a whole month or even for two months. And inasmuch as those beings at that time quickly incurred blame for immorality, they set to work to make huts, to conceal just that immorality.

Agañña Sutta (DN 27) - A Book of Genesis
https://suttacentral.net/en/dn27

:anjali:
Thank you :)
Good morning, have a nice day

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Re: health and celibacy

Post by Santi253 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:57 pm

When it comes to health and celibacy, don't men who get more sex have more testosterone, which is good for men's health? In Japan, monks and priests are allowed to be married, so they don't have to choose a sexless life.
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Re: health and celibacy

Post by khemindas » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:14 am

Santi253 wrote:When it comes to health and celibacy, don't men who get more sex have more testosterone, which is good for men's health? In Japan, monks and priests are allowed to be married, so they don't have to choose a sexless life.
Japan is destroying Buddhism through these kind of allowances.

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