The case against coffee (important)

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ihrjordan
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The case against coffee (important)

Post by ihrjordan » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:07 pm

Hello everyone, I just want to start by saying that everything I'm about to reveal may come as a shock to some but it's an issue which I feel is serious enough to warrant a full disclosure regardless. Coffee is seen in some lay and monastic circles as a "harmless" indulgence resulting in no more than maybe a headache or a slight caffeine buzz but I'm here to say that the regular intake of coffee is one of the most hazardous things a person can do to their body, and that Buddha certainly would not have allowed it to be drunk in the afternoon or indeed anytime if it's not directly indicated as a medicinal treatment.

My understanding of the effects that coffee has on human health is based on an understanding of health from an ayurvedic/yogic perspective so those who subscribe to any western model of health and nutrition will likely discount what I say as "unscientific " and to those people I encourage you to experiment and go without coffee for a month or so and see if it doesn't drastically improve your health.

To understand how coffee affects the body we must first understand what the taste of this substance is as well as why it causes the effects that it does. Coffee is categorized as a bitter taste in the ayurvedic framework meaning it is useful in cleaning and drying out the subtle channels where nutritonal fluid is carried to the bodily tissues (blood). This equates to "anti oxidants" in a western framework. But what we must understand is that coffee not only drys up and cleans the metabolic waste but it also cleans out the good stuff as well e.g. nutrients our bodies need to function. The reason coffee causes hyper activity in the body is because movement is associated with the elements of wind and space; when the nutritive fluid is totally flushed out the only that remains are microscopic air pockets which eventually travel up to the brain and circulate around the body resulting in physical and mental stimulation.

The reason coffee drinkers "crave coffee" is because their bodies aren't really craving coffee at all they are craving vital nutrients of which the coffee had previously burnt up and flushed out. But what do they generally do? Go and make another cup of coffee...surely you can see how this is problematic. These same withdrawal symptoms can be mitigated by rubbing the body with a nourishing oil like sesame which will return unctuousness to the subtle channels. Lastly the reason that coffee drinkers feel tired without coffee is because the air and space elements which control movement are no longer reaching the brain and rest of the body with the same quality and frequency.

Now that I've explained how coffee affects the body let me tell you why this is so problematic especially as it relates to those who eat one meal a day. When one habitually drinks coffee the body eventually attempts to maintain itself in lieu of the rampant loss of nutriment by holding on to its fat stores because the body believes itself to be starving (which it essentially is) hence medhu dhatu or fat is not converted into bone then bone marrow and lastly semen or ovum which is the most refined product of digestion. According to ayurveda and western medicine for that matter, bone marrow is our immune system. You've heard of white blood cells before I'm sure. Now what do you think would happen if fat is never converted in to bone and then into bone marrow? That's right, the immune system will no longer function properly and this is also why obesity and sexual infertility are often part of the same problem. Oh and why semen retention is so important, when the body is low on semen it will essentially weakens ones immune system in order to create more even at the expense of the rest of the organism.

We in the west seem to think that digestion only takes 3 hours or so basically once the food leaves the stomach but this couldn't be farther from the truth. We can't forget the time it is in the small intestine, large intestine, and when the nutrients are actually in the bloodstream. This too is digestion. According to ayurveda, it takes around 30 days for complete digestion meaning that it takes 30 days for food to go from Chyle to blood to muscle to fat to bone to bone marrow and then semen. But if were constantly burning up the nutritime fluid then how can our immune system possible rebuild itself? Eventually this can result in cancer, alzheimers, dementia and all other manner of diseases which have wasting away as the primary indication. Do you think it's a coincidence that cancer rates have risen with globalisation and the copious and abusive intake of coffee all around the world? My grandfather, a baby boomer, resultant coffee addict and eater of the standard American diet of dry, no nutrient food died at 69 of pancreatic cancer. My aunt and my great kind of uncle, both coffee drinkers and who maintained poor diets had/have cancer great aunt had breast cancer and kind of uncle has brain cancer and it spread to other parts of his body.

For closing remarks I will say that coffee is a very dangerous substance when in the wrong hands, of course western medicine won't tell you this since if it's good for one person it has to be good for everyone! If you're in need of energy in the afternoon drink water with organic sugar mixed in the Buddha allowed us to take as much as like whether sick or not. Why? Because it builds the immune system. If you're struggling from weight problems even while eating one meal a day then replacing coffee with sugar water and fruit juice will actually help you lose weight since the body is no longer in starvation mode it uses the old raw material and converts the fat into bone etc. I drink copious amounts of sugar water and fruit juices am 6'2 and hover around 150 lbs. I drink milk, eat meat, eat white rice and take ghee regularly. According to western medicine, paleo, raw vegan etc I should weigh 300 lbs have heart disease and be blind. Any further questions I'd be happy to answer them.

Good day.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:01 pm

Attachment to views is far more harmful than attachment to drinking coffee. Excess in most things is harmful. Taken in moderation, coffee is not a problem. Health issues may result from taking excessive amounts of caffeine, whether that's in coffee, tea, or red bull.

According to health guidelines, 400 mg a day is safe for most people, or 200 mg for pregnant women.

My caffeine intake is probably slightly over the recommended safe limit on some days, but rarely exceeds 600 mg. Black coffee without sugar or water are usually the only drinks that I take in the afternoons. Lay people who take sugar and full cream milk with their coffee have some additional health risks from the sugar.
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Mkoll
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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by Mkoll » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:19 pm

I tend to avoid caffeine-containing foods and drinks because of the way they affect my body. I get a boost of energy and alertness followed by its opposite, and my sleep is not as restful for some time afterward (edit: I forgot to add that it is not kind to my bowels, which are already sensitive by default). I think I am especially sensitive to caffeine because even when I built up a tolerance by drinking a cup or two (or three!) of coffee a day, I felt even more out of whack.

I think that some people are less sensitive to it than I am because they suffer fewer ill effects and their physiology is less troubled by it. This speaks to the unique nature of each person's respective physiology which arises due to one's genetics, environment, medical history, etc. This uniqueness is why it is hard to find "one-size-fits all" advice regarding diet that applies to everybody, besides obvious detriments such as toxic heavy metals. A case in point: the longest confirmed lifespan of a human was a woman named Jeanne Calment and she smoked cigarettes from age 21 to 117 (she died at 122).

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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ihrjordan
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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by ihrjordan » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:12 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Attachment to views is far more harmful than attachment to drinking coffee. Excess in most things is harmful. Taken in moderation, coffee is not a problem. Health issues may result from taking excessive amounts of caffeine, whether that's in coffee, tea, or red bull.

According to health guidelines, 400 mg a day is safe for most people, or 200 mg for pregnant women.

My caffeine intake is probably slightly over the recommended safe limit on some days, but rarely exceeds 600 mg. Black coffee without sugar or water are usually the only drinks that I take in the afternoons. Lay people who take sugar and full cream milk with their coffee have some additional health risks from the sugar.
Real sugar poses no health risks for those who do not suffer from diseases of excess. The Buddha allowed monks to take as much they like. Coffee on the other hand causes diseases of emaciation such as weight gain neurological disorders etc. These are not views this is how the elements operate within our physiology. The purpose of this post was not to argue in favor of ayurveda over allopathy. The only way to see for oneself is to try it. You'd be surprised at the complete ignorance of western medicine.

It is not the case that substances only have benefits and no detrimental effects. Food is medicine and as with medicine, if you take it when it is contraindicated it will cause disease.

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ihrjordan
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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by ihrjordan » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:49 pm

Our minds have developed the ability to perceive certain tastes as either sweet and delightful or bitter and disgusting. There's a reason that our first reaction when intaking a bitter substance is to spit it out or make a strange face, doesn't it make sense that during our evolution we would need to be able to distinguish between those substances that nourish and those that take away? If we subsisted on bitter foods we'd shrivel away to nothing. Sweet on the other draws us in, encouraging us to eat or drink it. Now what would happen if we don't listen to our bodies signals of distress when intaking a substance which does not help us and instead keep drinking and drinking?

The Buddha had quite a sweet tooth what with his admiration of ghee, sugar, honey, milk, rice. barley, butter etc. The Buddha calls honey "well crafted by the bee" in the sutta nippata bUT nowhere will you ever find him saying "the well formed coffee from the migrant worker"

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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by SarathW » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:59 pm

Thanks Jordan.
I am very pleased to see that you are on to Ayurveda.
How did you learn Ayurveda?
I drink only one Coffee a week as a social gesture and one tea a day.
I drink water and ginger water with sugar as a drink.
I feel great and I have a reasonably good sleep.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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ihrjordan
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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by ihrjordan » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:12 pm

SarathW wrote:Thanks Jordan.
I am very pleased to see that you are on to Ayurveda.
How did you learn Ayurveda?
I drink only one Coffee a week as a social gesture and one tea a day.
I drink water and ginger water with sugar as a drink.
I feel great and I have a reasonably good sleep.
Curiosity will take you anywhere you need to go. I knew the western model of health and nutrition was failing me and so I felt I had to seek the truth and it just so happens that the medicinal truth of ayurveda also overlaps with the truth of dhamma. And tea is certainly less harmful since it is less potent than coffee so long as its drunk in moderation (like no more than one cup a day in certain seasons as you do).

Western science wants to push it's truth onto everyone and we accept it because they have degrees and lab coats. They want us to believe that ancient and traditional cultures were ignorant and superstitious. The irony is that you'll find the highest rates of disease in so called "developed nations". They'll say that we should eat brown rice even though india, China, japan, South East Asia all eat white rice ...now tell me how many fat Japanese or indian people you know, my guess is not very many.

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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by DNS » Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:13 pm

ihrjordan wrote: 6'2" and hover around 150 lbs.
You're borderline - almost underweight; that is a BMI of only 19.3. Go and eat some pizza; unless you're doing CR diet for longevity.

I drink about 1-2 cups coffee on some days, but not everyday. I haven't noticed any weight or health problems, so far. My BMI is around 23-24 which is high, but still in the normal range.

:coffee:

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ihrjordan
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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by ihrjordan » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:59 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
ihrjordan wrote: 6'2" and hover around 150 lbs.
You're borderline - almost underweight; that is a BMI of only 19.3. Go and eat some pizza; unless you're doing CR diet for longevity.

I drink about 1-2 cups coffee on some days, but not everyday. I haven't noticed any weight or health problems, so far. My BMI is around 23-24 which is high, but still in the normal range.

:coffee:
Nikolai tesla was 6'2 142 lbs and lived to be 89. It is a sad affair when the standard is to be heavy. If everyone was obese then the average bodyweight would rise significantly thus making me on the verge of dying. Would this in effect make the obese healthy? That's the western framework for you.

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ihrjordan
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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by ihrjordan » Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:10 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
ihrjordan wrote: 6'2" and hover around 150 lbs.
You're borderline - almost underweight; that is a BMI of only 19.3. Go and eat some pizza; unless you're doing CR diet for longevity.

I drink about 1-2 cups coffee on some days, but not everyday. I haven't noticed any weight or health problems, so far. My BMI is around 23-24 which is high, but still in the normal range.

:coffee:
And obesity isn't the only disease it can cause. Don't forget baldness, infertility and debility as well.

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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:58 pm

I work in pathology (medicine) and there isn't evidence to support that caffeine is even among the top 100 (maybe, top 1000) hazards to your body.

But it is important to monitor overuse, like all things, especially in mindfulness/meditation practice.

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ihrjordan
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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by ihrjordan » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:21 pm

dharmacorps wrote:I work in pathology (medicine) and there isn't evidence to support that caffeine is even among the top 100 (maybe, top 1000) hazards to your body.

But it is important to monitor overuse, like all things, especially in mindfulness/meditation practice.
Again... "those who are keen on a western framework of health may find what I have to say as unscientific but I encourage you test it..."

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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:43 pm

ihrjordan wrote:
dharmacorps wrote:I work in pathology (medicine) and there isn't evidence to support that caffeine is even among the top 100 (maybe, top 1000) hazards to your body.

But it is important to monitor overuse, like all things, especially in mindfulness/meditation practice.
Again... "those who are keen on a western framework of health may find what I have to say as unscientific but I encourage you test it..."
Does giving that statement mean that you can/should make any sort of health claim, regardless of evidence, scientific, or otherwise, to the contrary? Such as that caffeine causes baldness, infertility, debilitation etc?

After all, "testing it" is what science does. In that way, it is a very useful counterbalance to feelings, impulses, judgements, superstition, old wives tales, etc. I think the Buddha would respect the efforts of science. Or at least, encourage responsibility in making medical or health claims.

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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by alan » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:57 pm

The Coffee bean is a gift to humanity. We should all show respect for that by consuming a few cups of the wonderful beverage every morning.
Preferably, with cream.

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ihrjordan
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Re: The case against coffee (important)

Post by ihrjordan » Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:18 am

dharmacorps wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:
dharmacorps wrote:I work in pathology (medicine) and there isn't evidence to support that caffeine is even among the top 100 (maybe, top 1000) hazards to your body.

But it is important to monitor overuse, like all things, especially in mindfulness/meditation practice.
Again... "those who are keen on a western framework of health may find what I have to say as unscientific but I encourage you test it..."
Does giving that statement mean that you can/should make any sort of health claim, regardless of evidence, scientific, or otherwise, to the contrary? Such as that caffeine causes baldness, infertility, debilitation etc?

After all, "testing it" is what science does. In that way, it is a very useful counterbalance to feelings, impulses, judgements, superstition, old wives tales, etc. I think the Buddha would respect the efforts of science. Or at least, encourage responsibility in making medical or health claims.
No it means that the purpose of this post was not to convince a mind bent on the western understanding of health to take up ayurveda but simply relay the understanding of how coffee affects ones biology according to it. Your comments make me feel as though you didn't read the entire OP which would be a shame but helas understandable. I explain in great detail my reasoning and you seemed to completely disregard everything as me just making it all up. Far be it from me to dive into lunacy. Perhaps you could read the post and then question me appropriately as a true scientist would do?

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