Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

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rowboat
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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

Post by rowboat »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mkoll wrote:There is a permanent cure for alcoholism and it's been around for thousands of years. It's really quite miraculous.

Don't drink.
Do you really think that really cures it?
That cannot be a serious comment.

Dr Gabor Mate on Brain Development & Addiction



In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters With Addiction by Dr. Gabor Mate
Last edited by rowboat on Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

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tiltbillings wrote:
Mkoll wrote:There is a permanent cure for alcoholism and it's been around for thousands of years. It's really quite miraculous.

Don't drink.
Do you really think that really cures it?
I'm not sure what counts as a "cure" here, but it is the perfect preventative, and the most widely-recognised strategy for a positive outcome.
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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

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tiltbillings wrote:
Mkoll wrote:There is a permanent cure for alcoholism and it's been around for thousands of years. It's really quite miraculous.

Don't drink.
Do you really think that really cures it?
I was being kind of tongue in cheek for dramatic effect but in a certain sense, yes, though I'd have to modify the wording. As long as one is not drinking, one is cured. But if one starts drinking again, then one may become an alcoholic and suffer from alcoholism again. So I guess it's not a "permanent cure" because one could still become an alcoholic again. Maybe it's better to call it a "100% effective treatment as long as it's followed."

It's definitely a 100% effective preventative cure, somewhat like a vaccine. If one never touches a drink in their life, how could they be an alcoholic?

~~~

Robin Williams said he was dry for 20 years and then he fell off the wagon, according to the interview Ben linked in another thread. I have few doubts that doing so contributed at least indirectly to his suicide.
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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

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Dan74 wrote:It was a shock to me and to many people, I'm sure. He was such a bright presence, blessed in so many ways and obviously cursed in others, less visible to the outsiders. It is hard to know what it was like for him and as much as I know that taking one's life is not the answer, I would not for a moment judge someone who has. May he be well, may he find a better rebirth and find freedom from suffering. And may his children, family and friends find their way amidst their terrible grief.

I had a period of deep depression a few years ago triggered by persistent work stress and negativity, some family issues and a general sense of worthlessness. I thought of suicide every day for several months, multiple times a day, mostly in a wistful way as an escape, but sometimes more concretely. It was the thought of my children and the effect it would have on them, that kept me from doing anything, I think.

Other people likely have it much worse, much darker and the pain probably more profound and enveloping.

I guess like many others say, reaching out for help after hiding the pain, was a big step in the right direction. In my case it was reaching out to my wife. And her help gave me enough positive energy to remind myself of the Dhamma, to recall that the suffering was mind-made and can be unmade, to cut the cycle of feeding these thoughts and feelings (which had seemed out of my control, beyond my power to change) and sort of pull myself out by the bootstraps.

There are of course many different cases, some people do great with drugs, others with therapy. I was fortunate to manage with neither but that was probably because it was more related to short term circumstances and luckily I had some grounding in the Dhamma and great support network. Others are not so lucky.
Thank you Dan for sharing.
I am saddened by your own struggle but happy that you were able to navigate your way out of the sargasso.

I have not disclosed this publicly before, but now seems to be the right time.
Clinical depression is something that has been a constant companion since 1976. Some periods have been more difficult than others and there haven't been many days when I haven't woken up with the first thought being one of suicide. Words cannot express how difficult, exhausting, limiting it has been - and continues to be.
Fortunately for me, I have been able to manage it. In one sense, I am thankful for it as it propelled me in a direction that led me to the Dhamma. I manage depression not just through meditation but a raft of strategies that include diet, exercise, maintaining important relationships, a whole-of-life approach to integrating the Dhamma into my daily life, therapy and pharmaceutical intervention. I have a very knowledgeable and compassionate person in my family doctor who I can see from time to time and my wife is a psychologist.
My heart goes out to anyone who suffers from this terrible organic condition, especially to those who either do not have a robust safety net or who don't make it.
Just a little clarification to things I have said earlier...
I strongly advocate that those who suffer from depression should continue with their Dhamma practice and not replace a treatment regime with just meditation.
I suspect many here would not approve of someone preferring to treat a broken leg, diabetes, or cancer with just meditation. Depression is no different - it is an organic condition that is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. Different people react differently to pharmacological treatment regimes and most SSRI medications can take six weeks to become efficacious. It's not a silver bullet which is why people with depression should (IMHO)'be under the guidance and supervision of trained professionals.
If anyone here is suffering from acute depression, I recommend that you seek immediate assistance. Speak to your family doctor, talk to your family, talk to your teacher or kalayanamitta.
With metta,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

Post by tiltbillings »

Mkoll wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mkoll wrote:There is a permanent cure for alcoholism and it's been around for thousands of years. It's really quite miraculous.

Don't drink.
Do you really think that really cures it?
I was being kind of tongue in cheek for dramatic effect but in a certain sense, yes, though I'd have to modify the wording. As long as one is not drinking, one is cured. But if one starts drinking again, then one may become an alcoholic and suffer from alcoholism again. So I guess it's not a "permanent cure" because one could still become an alcoholic again. Maybe it's better to call it a "100% effective treatment as long as it's followed."

It's definitely a 100% effective preventative cure, somewhat like a vaccine. If one never touches a drink in their life, how could they be an alcoholic?
You really do not know much about alcoholism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ben wrote:My heart goes out to anyone who suffers from this terrible organic condition, especially to those who either do not have a robust safety net or who don't make it.
Just a little clarification to things I have said earlier...
I strongly advocate that those who suffer from depression should continue with their Dhamma practice and not replace a treatment regime with just meditation.
I suspect many here would not approve of someone preferring to treat a broken leg, diabetes, or cancer with just meditation. Depression is no different - it is an organic condition that is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. Different people react differently to pharmacological treatment regimes and most SSRI medications can take six weeks to become efficacious. It's not a silver bullet which is why people with depression should (IMHO)'be under the guidance and supervision of trained professionals.
If anyone here is suffering from acute depression, I recommend that you seek immediate assistance. Speak to your family doctor, talk to your family, talk to your teacher or kalayanamitta.
With metta,
Ben
:goodpost:
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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

Post by Spiny Norman »

Mkoll wrote:Robin Williams said he was dry for 20 years and then he fell off the wagon, according to the interview Ben linked in another thread. I have few doubts that doing so contributed at least indirectly to his suicide.
It's quite common for people suffering from depression to "self-medicate" with alchohol, which usually compounds the problem.
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Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Ben,
Ben wrote:
I mention my story because there's not just a social stigma around mental health issues, there's also a Buddhist one. I have seen some Buddhist teachers make remarks about depression as a form of suffering; that one should be able to meditate and have everything be okay, in lieu of prescription medication. That is not true; meditation is not a cure-all for mental illness. The Buddha never taught a discourse entitled, "Don't Help Yourself, Continue to Suffer Your Chemical Imbalance." If you have a mental illness, meditation may be helpful, but should be considered an addition to, not a substitution for, prescribed medication.
-- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lodro-rin ... 72580.html
Thank you for sharing. It's very helpful to have information based on experience.

:anjali:
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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

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tiltbillings wrote:You really do not know much about alcoholism.
This is another confusing situation due to my using the wrong term. I should have used the term "alcohol dependence", as defined here. That's what I had in mind. If you read that link, you'll see that alcohol dependence depends upon drinking alcohol.

You probably have the disease theory of alcoholism in mind. And if you read that link, you'll see that not everyone agrees with this.

And just FYI, I know just a bit about alcohol dependence. Because of drinking alcohol: I've been to jail, I should have gotten a DUI when the cops pulled me over for driving drunk down the wrong way on a one-way street but miraculously I didn't, I've done serious damage to my car when I crashed into a curb, and I've woken up many times, often in my own vomit, not remembering what happened the night before (blackouts). My father and three of my grandparents abused alcohol, at least one went to AA. And that's enough to reveal.

So yeah, just a bit. :jumping:
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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

Post by Ben »

Dear ladies and gentlemen,
Please stay on topic.
Posts that do not relate to the OP may disappear without warning.
Thanks for your cooperation.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

Post by Anagarika »

tiltbillings wrote:
The article really does not say much. "just as effective as antidepressant drugs in treating anxiety or depressions" It depends, of course, how severe the depression is.
There are studies ongoing at U Wisconsin-Madison with veterans suffering depression and anxiety comorbid with PTSD, where meditation allowed some to get off of medication. However, these subjects were in a controlled environment, with trained clinicians and teachers, lead by Dr. Richard Davidson, a renowned clinician and meditator himself.

Other studies with people with severe, chronic depression showed the introduction of ketamine to lift severe depression, suggesting the significant brain chemical component to chronic depression.

Meditation may not help people with severe depression any more than it may help people with a broken leg. Both illnesses require medical treatment by trained clinicians. Can meditation be effective, as was shown in Dr. Davidson's studies, in mitigating the need for medication for some sufferers? Absolutely. See http://vimeo.com/43626665

Robin Williams seems like such a complex personality. Intractable internal suffering mitigated by busyness, humor, and over the top expression. Kind of like the veteran in the "Free the Mind" documentary, who lifted weights and exercised constantly to avoid the depression and anxiety, and suicide ideation. Mr. Williams had pre-existing depression addictions, along with financial issues that he seemed to not manage appropriately. One day, the Black Dog took hold of him and wouldn't let go, and lacking the assistance of someone to help him, he decided to escape the only way that, at the moment, he saw fit. Tragic.

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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

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Robin Williams's wife has reported that the actor was suffering from the early stages of Parkinson's Disease.
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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

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Anagarika wrote:Other studies with people with severe, chronic depression showed the introduction of ketamine to lift severe depression, suggesting the significant brain chemical component to chronic depression.
Perhaps. Another possibility is the drastic and powerful change in perspective that ketamine can induce on a person, allowing them to see their problems in a new light.

Similar studies have been done with psilocybin mushrooms and MDMA, showing positive outcomes.

The problem is these drugs are illegal in most places so there aren't many studies on them. In the 60's and 70's, before they were made illegal, psychiatrists and psychotherapists used them and similar drugs to treat mental disorders.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

Post by Anagarika »

Mkoll wrote:
Anagarika wrote:Other studies with people with severe, chronic depression showed the introduction of ketamine to lift severe depression, suggesting the significant brain chemical component to chronic depression.
Perhaps. Another possibility is the drastic and powerful change in perspective that ketamine can induce on a person, allowing them to see their problems in a new light.

Similar studies have been done with psilocybin mushrooms and MDMA, showing positive outcomes.

The problem is these drugs are illegal in most places so there aren't many studies on them. In the 60's and 70's, before they were made illegal, psychiatrists and psychotherapists used them and similar drugs to treat mental disorders.
James, I took my comment from a long piece done by NPR on the use of IV ketamine to break chronic sufferers from clinical depression out of their depressive state. The piece suggested that when nothing else worked, ketamine had a profound impact on their level of depression; some has been on typical SSRIs for years with little relief. Certainly, much more needs to be done by way of analysis of this. Here's just one story on this issue: http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatt ... epression/

(edit) and another: http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2014/140403.html
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Re: Robin Williams, depression, suicide and meditation

Post by Mkoll »

Anagarika wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
Anagarika wrote:Other studies with people with severe, chronic depression showed the introduction of ketamine to lift severe depression, suggesting the significant brain chemical component to chronic depression.
Perhaps. Another possibility is the drastic and powerful change in perspective that ketamine can induce on a person, allowing them to see their problems in a new light.

Similar studies have been done with psilocybin mushrooms and MDMA, showing positive outcomes.

The problem is these drugs are illegal in most places so there aren't many studies on them. In the 60's and 70's, before they were made illegal, psychiatrists and psychotherapists used them and similar drugs to treat mental disorders.
James, I took my comment from a long piece done by NPR on the use of IV ketamine to break chronic sufferers from clinical depression out of their depressive state. The piece suggested that when nothing else worked, ketamine had a profound impact on their level of depression; some has been on typical SSRIs for years with little relief. Certainly, much more needs to be done by way of analysis of this. Here's just one story on this issue: http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatt ... epression/

(edit) and another: http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2014/140403.html
I see, thanks for the links. They are definitely talking about the brain chemical component as you said. My post had more to do with the controlled psychotherapeutic use of ketamine and other illicit drugs. There's probably a place for both approaches, depending on the drug, the person, what's being treated, etc.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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