The cholesterol myth

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Alex123
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Post by Alex123 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:54 pm

marc108 wrote: for example: higher cholesterol could be indicative of higher meat consumption, which would give you more b12 and maybe the b12 is actually whats improving their psych scores. it could be that they have some genetic abnormality and the low cholesterol is just a symptom of that... kind of how the smoke alarm isnt actually a fire, just an indicator of the fire. it could be that when you spread this study out to 10,000 people instead of 20, this association disappears. its hard to know... i'm not saying its baseless, i'm just saying that assuming causal mechanisms in the way those blogs are is just bad science.

this was also a huge issue during some initial testing of vitamin supplements. for ex: we noticed people with high levels of blood vitamin A had less lung cancer. so the assumption was made that it was the vitamin A decreasing cancer... when the vitamin A is isolated and given to people, lung cancer actually increases! turns out that vitamin A is just an indicator for who's consuming more fruits and vegetables, and its the higher intake of fruits and veggies that actually is correlated with less lung cancer... through some unknown mechanism.
Interesting comment, it is definitely something to consider. Thank you very much.


another quote:
But cholesterol has many health benefits. Recent research revealed, for instance, that cholesterol plays a key role in regulating protein pathways involved in cell signaling and may also regulate other cellular processes.1

It’s already known that cholesterol plays a critical role within your cell membranes, but this new research suggests cholesterol also interacts with proteins inside your cells, adding even more importance.

Your body is composed of trillions of cells that need to interact with each other. Cholesterol is one of the molecules that allow for these interactions to take place. For example, cholesterol is the precursor to bile acids, so without sufficient amounts of cholesterol, your digestive system can be adversely affected.

It also plays an essential role in your brain, which contains about 25 percent of the cholesterol in your body. It is critical for synapse formation, i.e. the connections between your neurons, which allow you to think, learn new things, and form memories.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... _DNL_art_2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If Cholesterol plays essential role in the brain, then it is likely that too little of it can have negative affects on the mood.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Roland
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Post by Roland » Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:47 pm

Is anyone here familiar with nutritionfacts.org? It is run by Dr. Michael Greger who studies day and night all the latest peer reviewed studies on nutrition and summarizes the information in short videos usually around 2-3 minutes. He has posted videos daily for years. It's a great public service. Here is the section on cholesterol with links:
A plant-based diet high in fiber appears to lower bad cholesterol (see here, here, here, here). The new USDA Dietary Guidelines (see also here, here, here, here) even recommend a more plant-based diet to lower cholesterol intake. Dr. Ornish has long promoted such a diet for its health benefits. Unfortunately, many doctors may not be aware of this essential life-saving information.

Cholesterol-lowering drugs, on the other hand, have been found to have some attendant health risks. The current standard for the optimal level of cholesterol may not be low enough; 75% of heart attack patients were in the optimal range (see also here, here). Recent data suggests that cholesterol levels can never be too low.

High cholesterol has been linked to the following: heart disease, lower back pain, erectile dysfunction in men (watermelon may be a helpful treatment for this problem), sexual dysfunction in women, and gallstones. Foods that appear to increase cholesterol include: meat (see also here, here), eggs & chicken (see also here, here, here, here, here, here), brains, fast food, coconut milk, coconut oil, cow’s milk, and coffee (although a paper filter will remove the compounds that raise cholesterol).

Foods that have been linked to lower cholesterol include: Ceylon cinnamon , kale, beans (see also here), Indian gooseberries (see also here), dried apples, red yeast rice (which contains the drug Lovastatin), alkaline water (which can be made by simply adding baking soda to tap water), avocadoes (see also here), nuts, almonds, oatmeal, flax seeds (see also here, here), kiwis, green tea, raisins, soy, and cocoa. Bowel movements, both in terms of food mass transit time and size, may be relevant to cholesterol levels because this is how cholesterol is flushed out of the body. Cholesterol-free sources of vitamin B-12 are fortified plant foods and supplements.
Source: cholesterol

The following are relevant links from the above summary to this discussion:
IOM did not set ULs for trans fat, saturated fat and cholesterol because any intake level above 0% of energy increased LDL cholesterol concentration...
Source: eggs and chicken
All tissues are capable of synthesizing enough cholesterol to meet their metabolic and structural needs. Consequently, there is no evidence for a biological requirement for dietary cholesterol.
Source: here

This is from Michael Greger M.D. from the comments of the following video:
The point the researchers were trying to make in their review is that it's not the rise in cholesterol that accompanies the consumption of dietary cholesterol that is the primary problem. They note that you'd only expect a bump of 10% in our cholesterol level eating eggs. It's the oxidative, pro-inflammatory effects on the endothelium (the "life jacket" lining of our arteries) that is the primary reason we need to try to avoid eating cholesterol. Unfortunately these effects are more difficult to accurately measure.
Source: here

Eating a single egg a day (not sure if it has to do with the cholesterol) is said to only be safe for consumption by Dr David Spence if you have a terminal illness.

Source: here

Eating one egg a day shortens lives.

Source: here

Eggs and brains have the highest concentration of cholesterol.

Source: brains
"No tree becomes rooted and sturdy unless many a wind assails it. For by its very tossing it tightens its grip and plants its roots more securely; the fragile trees are those that have grown in a sunny valley."

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Alex123
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Post by Alex123 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:43 pm

Roland wrote:High cholesterol has been linked to the following:
Is high cholesterol the cause or sign of some other underlying problem that actually does the damage?

Imagine a strong wind that bends trees and blows various objects. Is bending of the trees the cause of wind or vice versa? How does bending of the trees (which don't touch the roof) affect the motion of trash on the street?

As for diet, of course plants do not contain cholesterol. Cholesterol is contained in animal tissue and is required for animals, not plants.

Excessive sugar consumption, trans fats, highly processed food, contamination in water, food, air is to blame. Eating healthy and organic meats is not to blame.
Eating one egg a day shortens lives.
And I've read about a 88 year old that ate 25 eggs per day for like 15 years with NO problem. He was tested and nothing unusual. So much for "don't eat eggs".

Normal Plasma Cholesterol in an 88-Year-Old Man Who Eats 25 Eggs a Day — Mechanisms of Adaptation
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

danieLion
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Post by danieLion » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:36 am

Roland,
"Links" prove nothing (cholesterol is linked to x, y, z, etc...). Be sure you're not committing the correlation implies causation version of the cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Social Engineers like Ancel Keys have been committing this fallacy for years. We know it as the "lifestyle" thesis: that your life habits determine what diseases you'll get and how long you'll live. This thesis is entirely incompatible with the fact that quality of life continues to improve, along with longevity. We're so much healthier than we use to be--despite being sedentary, eating fast food, smoking, etc...--that we now have a lot of time on our hands. We've used that time to create woes for ourselves that aren't real woes.

Epidemiology (along with trends like climate change 'science', not to mention statistics per se) is not very scientific.

Roland
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Post by Roland » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:47 pm

Alex123 wrote: Is high cholesterol the cause or sign of some other underlying problem that actually does the damage?
It seems like an underlying problem and/or unhealthy decisions are the culprits which can manifest in part as high cholesterol.
Alex123 wrote: As for diet, of course plants do not contain cholesterol. Cholesterol is contained in animal tissue and is required for animals, not plants.
I apologize. I was not intending to imply that people here do not know these basic things. I was simply including the whole of the summary because it seemed incomplete if I didn't. Perhaps I should have left out most of it. It would have been more efficient to include fewer links.

danieLion,
Very good and important points. I'm not necessarily trying to prove anything. Because of this post, I've delved much deeper into a subject I would not have gone so far into researching. I posted those links primarily to see what others thought of them and what you've said parallels my thoughts.

But I ask, in general, is it not an inference that because one 88 year old man ate 20 to 30 eggs for more than 15 years has normal plasma cholesterol even though the study says he has "decreased efficiency in cholesterol absorption" and that "he compensated further, primarily by doubling the usual rate of bile-acid synthesis."
The decrease in the efficiency of cholesterol absorption to only 18 percent of the unusually large intake played an important part in maintaining a normal plasma cholesterol level. Approximately 10,622 of the 12,953 μmol of cholesterol ingested each day passed through the patient's gastrointestinal tract to be excreted in the feces. Although he still absorbed 2331 μmol of cholesterol per day (2032 and 941 μmol per day more than the mean amount absorbed by the normal subjects during the low- and high-cholesterol diets, respectively), he compensated further, primarily by doubling the usual rate of bile-acid synthesis.


and also that
The efficiency of cholesterol absorption ... is usually 50 to 60 percent in humans over a wide range of dietary intake.
that anyone or everyone else who also eats 20-30 eggs per day for more than 15 years would also have normal plasma cholesterol?

I think the evidence is fairly strong in stating that dietary cholesterol does not effect cholesterol levels. I've noticed in my own diet that if I am ingesting dietary cholesterol or not, my levels are fine either way.
"No tree becomes rooted and sturdy unless many a wind assails it. For by its very tossing it tightens its grip and plants its roots more securely; the fragile trees are those that have grown in a sunny valley."

--Seneca the Younger (57 BCE- 65 AD)

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marc108
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Post by marc108 » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:10 am

Roland wrote:...

good post. im a big fan of Dr Ornish, personally & professionally. I do consume eggs though.
I think the evidence is fairly strong in stating that dietary cholesterol does not effect cholesterol levels. I've noticed in my own diet that if I am ingesting dietary cholesterol or not, my levels are fine either way.
same here


ps. that website is great :thumbsup:
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

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robertk
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Post by robertk » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:21 pm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... efits.html

Statins' side effects may outweigh any benefits, a leading heart expert warns

DooDoot
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:26 am

Alex123 wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:43 pm
And I've read about a 88 year old that ate 25 eggs per day for like 15 years with NO problem. He was tested and nothing unusual. So much for "don't eat eggs".

Normal Plasma Cholesterol in an 88-Year-Old Man Who Eats 25 Eggs a Day — Mechanisms of Adaptation
Dr Eric Berg ( a chiropractor) on You Tube says he has eaten 4 eggs for breakfast each day for the last 25 years. Obviously, he is aware of his medical condition.

I have taken an interest in this for the last three weeks since I did a test for something called Lipoprotein(a), which scored very high (even though my cholesterol was on the high side of normal). I then did a CT scan, where the result made the cardiologist concerned about one borderline fat build-up in one artery (which is clearly visible on the image).

A cardiologist Dr. Thomas Levy (on You Tube) follows the same theory as Berg; that cholesterol is a healing agent produced by the body in response to poor artery health caused by table salt causing arteries to bleed but, most importantly, too much sugar depriving arteries of crucial Vitamin C.

The view is that arteries absorb sugar & Vitamin C in the same way and that sugar will always defeat the Vitamin C in the process of absorption. Therefore, 100% orange juice is very bad (unlike eating an orange) because orange juice contains very high concentrations of fruit sugar, which will defeat the Vitamin C in the juice.

While I always believed I ate well, I did gain lots of weight over the past recent years due to a desk job. Two years ago, I was advised to reduce my brown rice intake, by my long term acupuncturist (who I visited after many years) from which I lost 10kg. The current cardiologist wants me to lose another 7kg.

However, recently, I have learned from these You Tube doctors their view that eating a lot of fruit is very bad because fruits with sucrose & fructose (but not glucose) turn to fat. I used to eat so much fruit (until a few days ago). Stopping fruit, I have already lost 3kg in a few days.

But so many of my eating habits, particularly fruit, fruit juice & yogurt were fattening (and I wondered why I put on the weight - yogurt,unlike cheese, is high in carbs), such as 2kg of apples, two rock melons, six bananas, 1/4 watermelon and whatever cheap mandarins & peaches I could buy, plus lots of orange juice, during one week;; plus my friends giving me lots of jackfruit from their trees.

Whilst I eat so many vegetables, they are high in Vitamin C plus many fruits are low in sugar but high in Vitamin C, such as lemons, limes, strawberries, guava, avocado & tomato. So I will focus on vegetables & these few fruits to charge up with Vitamin C.

I have reduced my brown rice to 2 cups per day (which is about 84 grams of carbs) & eliminated fruit & particularly fruit juice, given they are the culprits, plus yogurt. Will also stop eating beans, which are high in carbs.

I eat lots of vegetables with rice (breakfast & lunch) & will stay on two eggs every 2nd day & tofu other days for breakfast. For lunch, it is fish with the rice & veg.

I think I have learned from experience too much carbs & too much fruit adds weight (since I rarely eat junk food). Also, soy sauce I will stop. Lol - I did not follow the Buddha's advice:
Dhp 185: Knowing what is right in taking food.
I invested in a bunch of vitamins (B3/niacin, E and Lipospheric Vitamin C) & supplements (nattokinase, Co-Q-10 and Fish oil) & will see how it goes over the next 3 months. However, I think the food intake is most important, which won't be difficult for me to follow.

Its funny when you believe something is good (like fruit) but it is not. :smile:

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No_Mind
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Post by No_Mind » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:24 pm

There is lot of misinformation related to statins. There is a 0.05% chance of acquiring myopathy due to statins.

British Heart Foundation

Major review of statins evidence by BHF Professor shows benefits of drug

A major review suggests the benefits of statins have been underestimated and their potential harms exaggerated, due to failings in acknowledging the evidence from randomised trials and the limitations of other types of studies.

Professor Collins and his colleagues felt the potential harms of statins had been exaggerated after reviewing the evidence. They found that by lowering cholesterol as described above in 10,000 patients can cause five cases of myopathy (one of which might progress to the more severe condition of rhabdomyolysis, if the statin is not stopped), five to ten haemorrhagic strokes, 50-100 new cases of diabetes and up to 50-100 cases of symptomatic adverse events (such as muscle pain).
https://www.bhf.org.uk/news-from-the-bh ... ts-of-drug
The actual paper http://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/ ... 1357-5.pdf

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robertk
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Post by robertk » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:05 pm

thanks for that. my cholersterol is slightly high (like half of men over 40). Still weighing up whether I want to take pills; it goes against my grain a little.

denise
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Post by denise » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:03 pm

hello all...had a doctor tell me heredity had something to do with high cholesterol and how a person processes it.....am thin not heavy....he said body type, or how you look is not always a way to tell if a person has high cholesterol.....have tried 3 different types of statins....my short term memory was impaired badly and the muscle pain was really bad....had to stop...

DooDoot
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:03 pm

denise wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:03 pm
heredity had something to do with high cholesterol
The high Lipoprotein(a) in my body is supposedly heredity. It was my sister who suggested I do the special test. The Lipoprotein(a) test I had to pay for (unrebatable) given it is not a standard test. There can be normal cholesterol but very high Lipoprotein(a).
Lipoprotein(a), is a particle in your blood which carries cholesterol, fats and proteins. The amount your body makes is inherited from one or both parents and is determined by the genes passed on from your parent(s) when you are born. It does not change very much during your lifetime except if you are a women, levels increase as the natural estrogen level declines with menopause. Diet and exercise seems to have little to no impact on the lipoprotein(a) level.

http://www.lipoproteinafoundation.org/? ... erstandLpa
Here’s a secret most drug manufacturers don’t want you to know – millions of people die from heart attacks with normal cholesterol levels.

How can that be?

The reason is that total cholesterol is a poor predictor of heart disease. It’s not the evil villain it’s been made out to be. In fact, we can’t be healthy and can’t live without cholesterol.

What is an evil villain to heart health is a sub-fraction of a cholesterol particle. In this post, we’ll discuss ways to prevent or lower this heart disease risk factor.

WHAT IS LIPOPROTEIN (A)?

Lipoprotein (a) is also known as Lp(a). It is a sub-fraction of an LDL particle. It’s made in the liver and are one of the particles that transports cholesterol and triglycerides in your blood stream. Lp(a) is small, dense and very inflammatory.

The amount of Lp(a) made by your body is inherited from one or both of your parents by the genes passed on to you when you were born.

https://www.thedrswolfson.com/how-to-lower-lpa/

DooDoot
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:05 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:24 pm
There is lot of misinformation related to statins. There is a 0.05% chance of acquiring myopathy due to statins.
A friend of mine, my age, who is spiritually advanced (Christian) tried statins but the side effects were too severe for his sensitive consciousness. My sister has been recently using them &, similar, she gets pains in the joints. But her situation was very urgent; due to very high cholesterol (although she is quite thin).

I compared my situation with my sister. We have the same cardiologist. I have one fatty build-up but she has extensive heavy calcium build up. What is called 'plaque' can be either fat or calcium or a combination of both. My sister has been taking calcium supplements for years. I sent her these videos I just saw.




robertk wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:05 pm
thanks for that. my cholersterol is slightly high (like half of men over 40). Still weighing up whether I want to take pills; it goes against my grain a little.
Personally, I felt a bit reprimanded by the Buddha by realising how sloppy my diet was. Is easy to believe you eat fruit for health but it is really a very subtle form of sensual pleasure. For me to eat what I need is very easy so I am giving the diet & supplements path a try, as I posted. Just two meals per day and no fruit or yogurt (or any other food) at night. Just a lime in the evening, with water & eat the left over pulp. 8 precepts.

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