How to love myself?

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No_Mind
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Re: How to love myself?

Postby No_Mind » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:16 pm

cappuccino wrote:Well don't you realize the self is fictional, and your concerns are fictional.


I have already replied to this and do not want to drive my point home .. but you would do well to contemplate upon this story --

Yamaoka Tesshu was one of the greatest swordsmen of his time and was a layman who had almost embraced true mastery in Zen. Yamaoka Tesshu, as a young student of Zen, visited one master after another. He called upon Dokuon of Shokoku.

Desiring to show his attainment, he said: “The mind, Buddha, and sentient beings, after all, do not exist. The true nature of phenomena is emptiness. There is no realization, no delusion, no sage, and no mediocrity. There is no giving and nothing to be received.”

Dokuon, who was smoking quietly, said nothing. Suddenly he whacked Yamaoka with his bamboo pipe. This made the youth quite angry.

“If nothing exists,” inquired Dokuon, “where did this anger come from?”



binocular wrote:It seems that you don't believe you deserve to be happy. Perhaps it could pay off to investigate how come you don't believe that you deserve to be happy. Perhaps you even believe you deserve to be miserable.

It also seems impossible to love others, but not love oneself, or to even hate oneself. Someone who doesn't love themselves cannot love others either.
Admiring others or appreciating others isn't the same as wishing them well. Admiring others can be confused for wishing them well.


Not impossible at all. I am complicated. I have very high self esteem (it shows in my posts does it not) .. but I have a fixed, strong belief that nothing good can happen to me .. sort of like I am a cursed person. Belief in nocebo is as real as belief in placebo.

Don't happy people commit suicide? Human mind is far more complex than one can imagine. Why can one not shun oneself but love others? Is it so difficult to believe?

befriend wrote:Do you enjoy your own company? Where there is joy there is love. If you can have fun by yourself by being observant and using your intellect for fun you can be joyful, i find this gives me self kindness.


I do enjoy my own company very much. But that is because not being an academic, I do not find people I will like to mix with and over years have come to accept solitude.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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ryanM
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Re: How to love myself?

Postby ryanM » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:29 pm

Hey No_Mind,

Maybe it'd be best to start off with what you see in yourself that is worth loving. What qualities do you see in yourself that are worth admiration? Already, you've mentioned you care for the well-being of others. That's at least a starting point to me. Having self-love will, I think, really help to add much breadth to your love/care/metta of others.

Kind regards,

Ryan
sabbe dhammā nālaṃ abhinivesāya

binocular
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Re: How to love myself?

Postby binocular » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:26 pm

No_Mind wrote:Not impossible at all. I am complicated. I have very high self esteem (it shows in my posts does it not) .. but I have a fixed, strong belief that nothing good can happen to me .. sort of like I am a cursed person. Belief in nocebo is as real as belief in placebo.

You mean you're something like an anti-hero? Or a bit like Raskolnikov from Dostoyevsky's "Crime and punishment" (not the aspect of him plotting to kill the old woman, but his general attitude toward himself and the world)?
Or a bit like Don Quixote? Or like a protagonist in Kafka's writings?

Don't happy people commit suicide? Human mind is far more complex than one can imagine. Why can one not shun oneself but love others? Is it so difficult to believe?

Well, it sounds like a rather idealistic, artistic kind of character found mostly only in literature.
Or, in crude terms, a martyr without a cause.
Glenn Wallis: Nascent speculative non-Buddhism
- - -
Do you believe that the Dhamma can be adequately taught solely through words, and even to people one doesn't care about?

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No_Mind
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Re: How to love myself?

Postby No_Mind » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:39 pm

ryanM wrote:Hey No_Mind,

Maybe it'd be best to start off with what you see in yourself that is worth loving. What qualities do you see in yourself that are worth admiration? Already, you've mentioned you care for the well-being of others. That's at least a starting point to me. Having self-love will, I think, really help to add much breadth to your love/care/metta of others.

Kind regards,

Ryan


What qualities do I see in myself. Hmm .. would make a list tomorrow (I mean in my diary not here!!)


binocular wrote:
No_Mind wrote:Not impossible at all. I am complicated. I have very high self esteem (it shows in my posts does it not) .. but I have a fixed, strong belief that nothing good can happen to me .. sort of like I am a cursed person. Belief in nocebo is as real as belief in placebo.

You mean you're something like an anti-hero? Or a bit like Raskolnikov from Dostoyevsky's "Crime and punishment" (not the aspect of him plotting to kill the old woman, but his general attitude toward himself and the world)?
Or a bit like Don Quixote? Or like a protagonist in Kafka's writings?

Don't happy people commit suicide? Human mind is far more complex than one can imagine. Why can one not shun oneself but love others? Is it so difficult to believe?

Well, it sounds like a rather idealistic, artistic kind of character found mostly only in literature.
Or, in crude terms, a martyr without a cause.


Nothing quite so spectacular. I am unwilling to draw parallels from classical literature because that would indicate narcissism. On the more prosaic level of popular culture there are many characters with whom I identify myself .. most of all Fox Mulder from tv series The X-Files back in 1990s .. supremely aloof and cynical but enthusiastic. On a good day intelligent, perceptive and insightful. On a bad day reclusive, self absorbed, cynical, antagonistic, obsessed, paranoid and susceptible to insanity.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

binocular
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Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: How to love myself?

Postby binocular » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:29 pm

It is possible that a person' maintains a high self-esteem by strictly limiting their involvement with the real world, especially with people. Getting more involved could, at least at first, crush that high self-esteem, as well as love for others.
And yet, getting more involved with the world might be the only way to come to love oneself, because it is only through such involvement that one develops skills, learns of one's actual place in the world.


A poem by Rainer Maria Rilke that is fitting for this:


- - -

Solang du Selbstgeworfnes fängst, ist alles
Geschicklichkeit und läßlicher Gewinn -;
erst wenn du plötzlich Fänger wirst des Balles,
den eine ewige Mit-Spielerin
dir zuwarf, deiner Mitte, in genau
gekonntem Schwung, in einem jener Bögen
aus Gottes großem Brücken-Bau:
erst dann ist Fangen-Können ein Vermögen, -
nicht deines, einer Welt. Und wenn du gar
zurückzuwerfen Kraft und Mut besäßest,
nein, wunderbarer: Mut und Kraft vergäßest
und schon geworfen hättest..... (wie das Jahr
die Vögel wirft, die Wandervogelschwärme,
die eine ältre einer jungen Wärme
hinüberschleudert über Meere -) erst
in diesem Wagnis spielst du gültig mit.
Erleichterst dir den Wurf nicht mehr; erschwerst
dir ihn nicht mehr. Aus deinen Händen tritt
das Meteor und rast in seine Räume...


http://www.rilke.de/gedichte/solang.htm
- - -

As long as you catch self-thrown things
it’s all dexterity and venial gain-;
only when suddenly you hold that ball
which she, one of the eternal players,
has tossed to you, to your center, with
a precisely judged throw, in one of those arcs
that exist in God’s great bridge system:
only then is catching a proficiency,-
not yours, a world’s. And if then you had
the strength and courage to return the throw-
no, more wonderful – forgot strength and courage
and had thrown already….(the way the year
throws the birds, those migrating bird swarms,
which an older to a younger warmth sends
catapulting across oceans-) only in
that venture would you truly play the game.
No longer making the toss easy; no longer making
it hard. Out of your hands the meteor
would launch itself and flame into its spaces…


https://margihealing.wordpress.com/2012 ... wn-things/

- - -

As long as one is catching only things that one has thrown oneself, everything is easy and easily gained. Catching things that other people or nature throw is much harder, and really puts one to the test.
Glenn Wallis: Nascent speculative non-Buddhism
- - -
Do you believe that the Dhamma can be adequately taught solely through words, and even to people one doesn't care about?

binocular
Posts: 2536
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: How to love myself?

Postby binocular » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:42 pm

No_Mind wrote:Nothing quite so spectacular. I am unwilling to draw parallels from classical literature because that would indicate narcissism. On the more prosaic level of popular culture there are many characters with whom I identify myself .. most of all Fox Mulder from tv series The X-Files back in 1990s .. supremely aloof and cynical but enthusiastic. On a good day intelligent, perceptive and insightful. On a bad day reclusive, self absorbed, cynical, antagonistic, obsessed, paranoid and susceptible to insanity.

And if we stick with TV and film characters, in that category are also John Reese from "Person of Interest", Leon from Besson's "The Professional", Nathan Algren from "Last Samurai", even Edward Cullen from "Twilight," to name a few notable examples. They all have high self-esteem, don't love themselves, care greatly about (some) others.

However, they are also very capable, have many skills and practical qualities (and many are handsome). They ain't no Akaky Akakievich.
So before identifying with them or trying to emulate their emotional state and outlook on the world, it would be good to check for consistency.
Glenn Wallis: Nascent speculative non-Buddhism
- - -
Do you believe that the Dhamma can be adequately taught solely through words, and even to people one doesn't care about?

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cappuccino
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Re: How to love myself?

Postby cappuccino » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:57 pm

Identifying as a character?
Any identifying is the same, including the main identity/character.

A self isn't found for any role.
The standard description of nibbana after death is,
"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

jackson
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Re: How to love myself?

Postby jackson » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:05 am

Hi No Mind,
There are a few things I have found beneficial for cheering for oneself in life, as opposed to the self destructive tendencies some of us can fall into. Keeping the precepts is tremendously important, and reflecting on one's moments of kindness and generosity can uplift the mind. Also one thing that I found really helpful was developing plenty of compassion for the suffering of other beings and wishing for their welfare. It got to the point where the only person I didn't have true compassion for was myself until one day I contemplated the guilt I had carried for years and asked "If this were someone else in the exact same situation what would I wish for them?", and realized that I'd want them to stop with the self-flagellation and be happy and kind. Anyway, just turning things around and viewing yourself from a different perspective can be of great help.
Best wishes,
:smile:
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah

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No_Mind
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Re: How to love myself?

Postby No_Mind » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:27 am

binocular wrote:And if we stick with TV and film characters, in that category are also John Reese from "Person of Interest", Leon from Besson's "The Professional", Nathan Algren from "Last Samurai", even Edward Cullen from "Twilight," to name a few notable examples. They all have high self-esteem, don't love themselves, care greatly about (some) others.

However, they are also very capable, have many skills and practical qualities (and many are handsome). They ain't no Akaky Akakievich.
So before identifying with them or trying to emulate their emotional state and outlook on the world, it would be good to check for consistency.


This is wandering into territory about me instead of 'How to love myself' .. something I am loathe to do for obvious reasons. You presuppose I do not have many "skills and practical qualities" and that I am not handsome (among members of Bengali ethnicity) .. an irksome conclusion which I am willing to overlook to protect my privacy.

Not to get into an argument but Mulder was not a soldier like Algren, Reese or a hitman like Leon. He was a FBI investigator who was passionate about his work. Neither I nor Mulder are killers.

But no more discussing me please. Just discuss my question.

jackson wrote:Hi No Mind,
There are a few things I have found beneficial for cheering for oneself in life, as opposed to the self destructive tendencies some of us can fall into. Keeping the precepts is tremendously important, and reflecting on one's moments of kindness and generosity can uplift the mind. Also one thing that I found really helpful was developing plenty of compassion for the suffering of other beings and wishing for their welfare. It got to the point where the only person I didn't have true compassion for was myself until one day I contemplated the guilt I had carried for years and asked "If this were someone else in the exact same situation what would I wish for them?", and realized that I'd want them to stop with the self-flagellation and be happy and kind. Anyway, just turning things around and viewing yourself from a different perspective can be of great help.
Best wishes,
:smile:


Exactly .. so I must view myself as a person 'out there' and find compassion for that person .. good suggestion. Thank you :smile:

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

binocular
Posts: 2536
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: How to love myself?

Postby binocular » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:00 am

No_Mind wrote:This is wandering into territory about me instead of 'How to love myself' .. something I am loathe to do for obvious reasons. You presuppose I do not have many "skills and practical qualities" and that I am not handsome (among members of Bengali ethnicity) .. an irksome conclusion which I am willing to overlook to protect my privacy.

Not to get into an argument but Mulder was not a soldier like Algren, Reese or a hitman like Leon. He was a FBI investigator who was passionate about his work. Neither I nor Mulder are killers.

Them being soldiers or killers is not the point here. We're talking about a particular type of character. It can be found in literature, as already mentioned, and those characters aren't necessarily killers either. But you said you don't want those comparisons; also, those characters don't make for exciting tv material so they are less well known.
You're not Mulder either.

I'm sure you have many skills and practical qualities. It's not about measuring up to sme static standard, but to a dynamic, relative one that meets the circumstances that the individual person is actually living in. One person, with one set of skills and practical qualities can do well in one set of circumstances and feel good about themselves. Another person, or in different circumstances can have the same or comparable set of skills and practical qualities, but they are not enough anymore for that person to feel good about themselves. So that second person or in the second set of circumstances needs to up their game in order to be able to feel good about themselves.

But no more discussing me please. Just discuss my question.

The thread question is "How to love myself?" Note the "myself"?

Fortunately or unfortunately, that makes it personal, for you, and we cannot discuss this in some general, abstract manner regardless of you and whatever is specific for you.
Glenn Wallis: Nascent speculative non-Buddhism
- - -
Do you believe that the Dhamma can be adequately taught solely through words, and even to people one doesn't care about?

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No_Mind
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Re: How to love myself?

Postby No_Mind » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:09 am

binocular wrote:Them being soldiers or killers is not the point here. We're talking about a particular type of character. It can be found in literature, as already ...............


Note to self --

First step in metta for self .. do not engage in pointless arguments bordering on sealioning. Love yourself enough to not take up such meaningless burden.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

binocular
Posts: 2536
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: How to love myself?

Postby binocular » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:20 am

To quote daverupa from another forum:

I think it's useful to primarily discuss a given motivation to practice, rather than one or another contemplative method, at first. The chosen goal(s) is what guides the effort, and being clear on this clarifies a lot of discussion; it's a more essential place to begin than I first thought, in fact.

Now, defining the problem is in fact what the First Truth does; so, it's the obvious place to begin a discussion among Buddhists, but 'dukkha' and 'dukkhanirodha' can get different interpretations. Divergent methods immediately appear; people disagree about practice in subtle ways & not-so-subtle ways. Everyone takes the fabric they can, and stitches it together as best they can - but they're doing it for a reason, and this is more important to understand in each individual case.

Here, I would wonder why "letting go" sits in one or another set of practices for someone; this is the sort of thing that's so much easier to talk about in person, you know...? ...but, the question for me revolves around why "letting go" - however understood - is seen as valuable. I wonder if people can put this into their own words... I'll be thinking on it...

https://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.c ... t=daverupa


The same goes for the practice of "loving yourself".
Why does someone want to "love themselves"? What do they hope to accomplish with "loving themselves"?
Glenn Wallis: Nascent speculative non-Buddhism
- - -
Do you believe that the Dhamma can be adequately taught solely through words, and even to people one doesn't care about?


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