Level of knowledge required for ordination?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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appicchato
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Re: Level of knowledge required for ordination?

Post by appicchato »

...check out some of the current Theravada teachers out there instead of relying solely on scripture or the teachings of the deceased...
If asked, I would advise the opposite...
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Beneath the Wheel
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Re: Level of knowledge required for ordination?

Post by Beneath the Wheel »

makarasilapin wrote: in my experience, the Ajahn Chah lineage is rife with double-standards..
As this is the lineage I am most inclined toward, do you have any examples you'd wish to share?

appicchato wrote:
If asked, I would advise the opposite...
That seems sensible to me as well. I like to stick to the basics, and look for teachers who reflect that.
makarasilapin
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Re: Level of knowledge required for ordination?

Post by makarasilapin »

i don't think i should have to mention this but a Theravada Buddhist is an Orthodox Buddhist - they rely on the Pali Canon for direction. if you interpret some of the suttas as allegorical, or as later additions that cannot be directly linked to Buddha, then who is to say what is allegorical and not allegorical, or who is to say when this sutta was added or when that sutta was added? if you start interpreting the Pali Canon they way you see fit then the Pali Canon loses some of its authority, doesn't it?

for example, the Aggunna Sutta basically says that humans devolved from devas and that they began to develop sex organs after eating too much rice. clearly, this isn't true - but if you interpret it as allegory then what else in the Buddha's teachings is allegory? i forget the sutta's name, but it is found in the Majjihme Nikaya where Ananda tells the story of Buddha's birth. Ananda says the Buddha was born bloodless, and was immediately walking and talking, and Buddha confirms this. again, clearly this isn't possible. if you interpret it as allegory, what else is allegorical and what is truth? why should we believe that devas and the realm of Four Kings even exist? because Luang Por Maha Boowa says so? because Luang Por Mun supposedly visited deva realms and gave dhamma talks to them? Because Buddha supposedly said so?

if you come to the point where you start interpreting some of the teachings as allegorical then it opens up a whole can of worms. say, if devas don't exist, then what was LP Maha Boowa talking about? could have LP MB and LP Mun been deluded into believing something that doesn't exist? why not?

also, with regards to my comment about finding a current teacher. you're going to be living under the direction and constant attention of a teacher. if you have questions, he will be providing the answers. you're not always going to be able to rely on dead teachings. wouldn't you rather find this teacher that embodies the teachings alive and able to teach you rather than by reading a book?

i won't identify any teachers applicable to my double-standard comment.
Paññāsikhara
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Re: Level of knowledge required for ordination?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Perhaps go and ask potential preceptors...

~~ H
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Level of knowledge required for ordination?

Post by tiltbillings »

makarasilapin wrote:if you interpret it as allegory, what else is allegorical and what is truth?
Yes, and this the same question Christians struggle with in terms of their Bible.

Also, an allegory is one way of expressing truth.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
makarasilapin
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Re: Level of knowledge required for ordination?

Post by makarasilapin »

tiltbillings wrote:
makarasilapin wrote:if you interpret it as allegory, what else is allegorical and what is truth?
Yes, and this the same question Christians struggle with in terms of their Bible.

Also, an allegory is one way of expressing truth.
allegory is useful fiction and not truth...
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tiltbillings
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Re: Level of knowledge required for ordination?

Post by tiltbillings »

makarasilapin wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
makarasilapin wrote:if you interpret it as allegory, what else is allegorical and what is truth?
Yes, and this the same question Christians struggle with in terms of their Bible.

Also, an allegory is one way of expressing truth.
allegory is useful fiction and not truth...
Useful in that it can express what is true.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Beneath the Wheel
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Re: Level of knowledge required for ordination?

Post by Beneath the Wheel »

makarasilapin wrote:i don't think i should have to mention this but a Theravada Buddhist is an Orthodox Buddhist - they rely on the Pali Canon for direction. if you interpret some of the suttas as allegorical, or as later additions that cannot be directly linked to Buddha, then who is to say what is allegorical and not allegorical, or who is to say when this sutta was added or when that sutta was added? if you start interpreting the Pali Canon they way you see fit then the Pali Canon loses some of its authority, doesn't it?
Is it your experience that most Theravada monks hold a literal interpretation of all the kinds of controversial suttas you are referring to?
Bankei
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Re: Level of knowledge required for ordination?

Post by Bankei »

I disagree that a Theravada Buddhist is an orthodox Buddhist.

Firstly, all Buddhist traditions think of themselves as orthodox. What makes Theravada anymore orthodox than Chinese Buddhism or Tibetan?

Secondly, few Theravada monks even read scriptures let alone follow the teachings.

On the Acharn Chah group, I recall seeing the young monks washing the feet of the 'senior' monk when coming back from bindabart. Feet are conisdered particularly dirty in Thailand and it is a great insult to let your foot touch anyone else. The senior monks see this as a good way to teach detachment (and to get their feet cleaned without dirtying their hands). Others just see it as exploitation of the weak.
-----------------------
Bankei
JackV
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Re: Level of knowledge required for ordination?

Post by JackV »

makarasilapin wrote:i don't think i should have to mention this but a Theravada Buddhist is an Orthodox Buddhist - they rely on the Pali Canon for direction. if you interpret some of the suttas as allegorical, or as later additions that cannot be directly linked to Buddha, then who is to say what is allegorical and not allegorical, or who is to say when this sutta was added or when that sutta was added? if you start interpreting the Pali Canon they way you see fit then the Pali Canon loses some of its authority, doesn't it?

for example, the Aggunna Sutta basically says that humans devolved from devas and that they began to develop sex organs after eating too much rice. clearly, this isn't true - but if you interpret it as allegory then what else in the Buddha's teachings is allegory? i forget the sutta's name, but it is found in the Majjihme Nikaya where Ananda tells the story of Buddha's birth. Ananda says the Buddha was born bloodless, and was immediately walking and talking, and Buddha confirms this. again, clearly this isn't possible. if you interpret it as allegory, what else is allegorical and what is truth? why should we believe that devas and the realm of Four Kings even exist? because Luang Por Maha Boowa says so? because Luang Por Mun supposedly visited deva realms and gave dhamma talks to them? Because Buddha supposedly said so?

if you come to the point where you start interpreting some of the teachings as allegorical then it opens up a whole can of worms. say, if devas don't exist, then what was LP Maha Boowa talking about? could have LP MB and LP Mun been deluded into believing something that doesn't exist? why not?
Do you really think that there is no possibilities of Devas existing? My view is how do we know? Secondly, whilst I understand your point, surely these things, even if you cannot believe them, are not necessary for liberation. Maybe at a further stage in development one could suddenly have direct emperical proof of these things and then know.
The way I feel about it is that you must have faith in the basic aim of the Dhamma and the fundamental / core points (4 noble truths etc). From that then the rest of the stuff of this nature is simply something we can either chose to believe or not to believe until that point that we either find finally it's true or not true. And by then I think it would be so minor that you wouldn't really care or that you would understand why it was said.
Didn't the Buddha say that what he told us was but a drop in the ocean compared to what he did know? He spoke what needed to be said to certain people and witheld other things as they would simply lead us away from the goal. M maybe all these suttas were designed to be the most effective way of communicating the truth to the people of the time.
My feeling has always been that alongside (almost as a background to the practical, working, effective path) we were told but a small sliver of the whole metaphysical / cosmological workings of things, and that even that may have been given to us in a way that from a more developed or different perspective would appear to be different from another way.
Who knows?
Here where a thousand
captains swore grand conquest
Tall grasses their monument.
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Anagarika
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Re: Level of knowledge required for ordination?

Post by Anagarika »

Here's a recent ordination of a novice at Wat Sri Boen Ruang:

http://watsriboenruang.wordpress.com/20 ... nera-vows/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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