Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
User avatar
yamaka
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:44 am
Location: Malaysia
Contact:

Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by yamaka » Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:11 am

Dear all Dhamma friends,

I have heard from some Myanmar's tradition Bhikkhu, indicated that in Myanmar, if someone intent to get ordained and his parents is not allow, he is eligible to find someone to become his adoptive parents and make his qualifications valid.

Further more, they saying that, if one's parents are not a Buddhist, he is also eligible to get ordain without his parents permission, all of the basis are from the Vinaya commentaries and the Dhammapada commentaries, thus the Ven. Revata's example.(younger brother of Ven. Sariputta)

I have searched the information regarding this issue, most of the Vinaya texts(including earlier Buddhism schools) are stated if ones wishes to get ordained, he must get the permission from the parents and I have asked the Thai tradition's Bhikkhu too then they're denied the above statement.

Please give your comment for this issue.

With Metta,
:namaste:

User avatar
Sobeh
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:35 am
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, US
Contact:

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by Sobeh » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:21 am

It's the tenth question asked during the ceremony for higher ordination, I can't see a way around that.

1. Do you suffer from leprosy?
2. Have you got boils?
3. Have you got eczema?
4. Have you got tuberculosis?
5. Do you get epilepsy?
6. Are you a human being?
7. Are you a man?
8. Are you a free man?
9. Are you free from government service?
10. Have you got your parents' permission to be ordained?
11. Have you a set of three robes and an almsbowl?
12. What is your name?
13. What is your preceptor's name?

Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by Paññāsikhara » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:17 am

Where there's a will, there's a way! :heart:
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21256
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:42 am

Greetings Yamaka,

I think you can be a samanera without parental permission.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

User avatar
yamaka
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:44 am
Location: Malaysia
Contact:

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by yamaka » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:53 am

Sobeh wrote:It's the tenth question asked during the ceremony for higher ordination, I can't see a way around that.

1. Do you suffer from leprosy?
2. Have you got boils?
3. Have you got eczema?
4. Have you got tuberculosis?
5. Do you get epilepsy?
6. Are you a human being?
7. Are you a man?
8. Are you a free man?
9. Are you free from government service?
10. Have you got your parents' permission to be ordained?
11. Have you a set of three robes and an almsbowl?
12. What is your name?
13. What is your preceptor's name?
Dear Sobeh,

Yes, I knew these questions, but isn't anyway around that to let ones make an exception,e.g. find someone to be your adoptive parents according the commentaries?


With Metta,
:namaste:  

User avatar
yamaka
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:44 am
Location: Malaysia
Contact:

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by yamaka » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:54 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:Where there's a will, there's a way! :heart:


yes, that is :quote:

User avatar
yamaka
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:44 am
Location: Malaysia
Contact:

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by yamaka » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Yamaka,

I think you can be a samanera without parental permission.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Hi Retro,

I thought the rule for a man to be ordained as a monk(or going forth as a Samanera) must have the permission from the parents according to the Vinaya?
King Suddhodana,He requested the Buddha not to allow the going-forth of children without their parents’ permission - and the Buddha laid down a ruling that this was not to be done.To do so in future would be an offence of wrong-doing.

With Metta,
:namaste:

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21256
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:03 am

Greetings Yamaka,
yamaka wrote:I thought the rule for a man to be ordained as a monk(or going forth as a Samanera) must have the permission from the parents according to the Vinaya?
I can't be 100% sure - I've never been a samanera... but I'm pretty sure there's no such requirement for a samanera. Possibly someone else can comment either way?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

User avatar
yamaka
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:44 am
Location: Malaysia
Contact:

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by yamaka » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:05 am

These are the exceptions quoted by the Bhikkhu from the Dhammapada commentary:

Verse 98

VII (9) The Story of Thera Revata
While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (98) of this book, with reference to Thera Revata of the Acacia (khadira) Forest.

Revata was the youngest brother of the Chief Disciple, Sariputta. He was the only one of the brothers and sisters of Sariputta who had not left home for the homeless life. His parents were very anxious to get him married. Revata was only seven years old when his parents arranged a marriage for him to a young girl. At the wedding reception, he met an old lady who was one hundred and twenty years old, and he realized that all beings are subject to ageing and decay. So, he ran away from the house and went straight to a monastery, where there were thirty bhikkhus. Those bhikkhus had been requested earlier by Thera Sariputta to make his brother a samanera if he should come to them. Accordingly, he was made a samanera and Thera Sariputta was informed about it.

Samanera Revata took a subject of meditation from those bhikkhus and left for an acacia forest, thirty yojanas away from the monastery. At the end of the vassa, the samanera attained arahatship. Thera Sariputta then asked permission from the Buddha to visit his brother, but the Buddha replied that he himself would go there. So the Buddha accompanied by Thera Sariputta, Thera Sivali and five hundred other bhikkhus set out to visit Samanera Revata.

The journey was long, the road was rough and the area was uninhabited by people; but the devas looked to all the needs of the Buddha and the bhikkhus on the way. At an interval of every yojana, a monastery and food were provided, and they travelled at the rate of a yojana a day. Revata, learning about the visit of the Buddha, also made arrangements to welcome him. By supernormal power he created a special monastery for the Buddha and five hundred monasteries for the other bhikkhus, and made them comfortable throughout their stay there.

On their return journey, they travelled at the same rate as before, and came to the Pubbarama monastery on the eastern end of Savatthi at the end of the month. From there, they went to the house of Visakha, who offered them alms-food. After the meal, Visakha asked the Buddha if the place of Revata in the acacia forest was pleasant.

And the Buddha answered in verse as follows:

Verse 98. In a village or in a forest, in a valley or on a hill, wherever arahats dwell, that place is delightful.
:namaste:

User avatar
Sobeh
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:35 am
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, US
Contact:

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by Sobeh » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:41 pm

So ordination sans parental permission can occur in cases where the parents are, through family tradition and/or the broader culture, going to add householder fetters to one so motivated? (i.e. an arranged marriage) I suppose it seems to reflect the intention of the pre-renunciate. In the Sutta, the new monk was off to the forest, he didn't hang about...

User avatar
Phra Chuntawongso
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 11:05 am
Location: Wat SriBoenRuang,Fang,Chiang Mai
Contact:

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by Phra Chuntawongso » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:57 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Yamaka,
yamaka wrote:I thought the rule for a man to be ordained as a monk(or going forth as a Samanera) must have the permission from the parents according to the Vinaya?
I can't be 100% sure - I've never been a samanera... but I'm pretty sure there's no such requirement for a samanera. Possibly someone else can comment either way?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro.In the Maha Nikaya tradition you do not need parental permission for samanera ordination.
I believe that in the Dhammayuttka Order you would do.
With metta
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning

User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by Annapurna » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:18 am

Hi, may I ask something too?

What is meant with this?
Have you got eczema?
Eczema seems in many cases a harmless and not contageous condition that doesn't require much medical attention...it can come and go.

Would it be impossible to ordain if you have a harmless condition that comes and goes?

That would make me feel sorry for the individual.

Second question:

What if such a condition arises AFTER ordaining for the first time?

What if a monk enters overall healthy, but gets a heart illness or cancer later on?

What happens to him?

That's something I've wanted to ask for a while now. :anjali:

User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by appicchato » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:48 pm

Annapurna wrote:Would it be impossible to ordain if you have a harmless condition that comes and goes?
No...
What if a monk enters overall healthy, but gets a heart illness or cancer later on?
What happens to him?
Depends on who, and where, he is...someone with a 'name' living in a large city will be covered for sure...a recluse, living in a hinterland, may, or may not, have the support necessary (for your examples) and is pretty much on his own...

User avatar
Ytrog
Posts: 702
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: The Netherlands, near Deventer

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by Ytrog » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:08 pm

Was epilepsi a recognized condition in those days? :O

If I remember correctly the rule that parents need to give permission is based upon the fact that people had a responsibility for their parents and their livelyhood and that parents need to relieve their child of that responsibility. Am I correct?

These days that is not really a big factor anymore now that people are more supported by the government when they grow old or something happens to them. Would that rule still be strictly applied these days? It was said that the Maha Nikaya is not that strict. Does this include the Ajahn Chah lineage in this respect?
Is there anything possible when parents refuse? An appeal of some kind?

I do believe that most parents want their children to be happy in their lives and wouldn't refuse if someone is really serious. Otherwise you can try hanging in a tree and threatening to let go of the branch. That is a way to ordain if your parents refuse. :tongue:
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

nalandaleong
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:47 am

Re: Ordination without parents permission, is that possible?

Post by nalandaleong » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:20 am

sorry, not very sure of the requisites.
What if both parents are deceased ?
What if the spouse or children object ?
Is it still possible to be ordained under such circumstances ?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mario75 and 12 guests