A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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MissGredelin
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A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by MissGredelin » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:56 pm

:anjali: As the title says, what are a monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva? :anjali:
Life is no competition, and never will be. It takes time to reveal all your thoughts about self, delusions, greed, hate and attachments. Don't take life too seriously, you will never get out of it alive.

May all sentinent beings be free from suffering.
May their practice show them the way.
May they all be happy.

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:59 pm

My line of thinking " it's not part of my tradition, its not really something the Buddha teaches or recommends in the EBTs(although the concept for the Bodhisatta is IN the EBTs and you can see its origin, but the Buddha doesn't recommend a split second in samsara, so you never see him speak of it or recommend it), so I don't need to have an opinion on it, live and let live, let them do what they do over there, and I do what I do over here.

otherwise it just gets into debates and disputation, I've been in a room where Theravada and Mahayana monastics discuss things like arahants and bodhisattvas, it can get heated, and frankly not worth a minutes worth of participating in.
“Bhikkhus, I do not dispute with the world; rather, it is the world that disputes with me. A proponent of the Dhamma does not dispute with anyone in the world.
“Bhikkhus, do not engage in disputatious talk, saying: ‘You don’t understand this Dhamma and Discipline. I understand this Dhamma and Discipline. What, you understand this Dhamma and Discipline! You’re practising wrongly, I’m practising rightly. What should have been said before you said after; what should have been said after you said before. I’m consistent, you’re inconsistent. What you took so long to think out has been overturned. Your thesis has been refuted. Go off to rescue your thesis, for you’re defeated, or disentangle yourself if you can.’ For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, this talk is unbeneficial, irrelevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and does not lead to revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna.
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Chanh Dao
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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by Chanh Dao » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:21 pm

As we walk the path to awakening we in effect help beings.

It is such a natural process that many times we dont even see the benefit to others that can come from developing our own meditation practice, compassion practice, wisdom practice.

When it comes to being a bodhisattva in the mahayana ideal from a theravada perspective it's simply a matter of how we look at things.

As theravada monks we vow to return again and again to this body, to this moment, to this human life.

Every waking moment we vow to cultivate insight, to cultivate compassion, to cultivate utter and total awakening in our meditation practice and in our everyday lives.

As we do this we also help others and so in effect we are doing this practice of being a bodhisattva up until we attain total and complete enlightenment and when that happens well it could be said that with true awakening all beings also awaken. At least from our point of view.


The difference between that and the mahayna point of view is that their is a very distinct focus on engaged buddhism, community service, taking vows of saving all beings, making the meditation practice a bit more community focused. To varying degrees.


If you have any specific thoughts I'd love to talk more about it.
🙏

char101
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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by char101 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:26 am

A sick patient is postponing his recovery (although the medicine is available here and now) until he become a doctor himself while along the way wanting to help to cure other patient (without having the ability to) and ignoring the fact that the other patient can cure themselves using the medicine that is available here and now?

Mahayana is an acculturation of buddhism with chinese culture. In chinese culture, gods are the theme. Buddhas and bodhisatvas in mahayana are like gods. In chinese culture people always want to reach god-ness by practicing for aeons. The theravada view on the other hand is simple: you practice the path, you become freed from samsara. The path is taught by a samma sambuddha. A bodhisatta can vow to become a samma sambuddha, but not everyone can become a boddhisatta. One at least need to have an encounter with another samma sambuddha and was assured that he can become a samma-sambuddha later on.
Eight conditions for a samma-sam-buddha, according to Khuddaka Nikaya, Buddhavamsa 2.59:

Manussatta: the human state. The resolve to become a Sammāsambuddha can be made only during a life in which one is a human being.
Liṅgasampatti: possession of the right sex. One must be a man, not a woman, a congenital eunuch, or a hermaphrodite.
Hetu: cause. Possessing the supporting conditions for attaining arahantship in that same life, if he were to exert himself towards this end.
Satthāradassana: the sight of the Teacher. This means an encounter with a Sammāsambuddha, as when Sumedha met the Buddha Dīpaṅkara and declared his resolve in his presence.
Pabbajjā: going forth into the homeless life. One must have left the household life and be an ascetic who holds to the doctrine of the efficacy of kamma, like the ascetic Sumedha when he made his resolve.
Guṇasampatti: attainment of special qualities. One must have attained special or distinctive qualities, beginning with the jhānas, like Sumedha, who had attained the five mundane higher knowledges (abhiññā) and the eight attainments (samāpatti) when he made his resolve before the Buddha Dīpaṅkara.
Adhikāra: extreme dedication. At the time of making one's resolve to become a Sammāsambuddha one must be prepared to sacrifice everything, even one's life.
Chandatā: strong desire. Having a strong desire to become a Sammāsambuddha, no matter how great the difficulties and obstacles one may encounter. For example, if he were told that to attain sammāsambodhi it would be necessary to tread his way across an entire world-system filled with flameless hot coals, or tread his way across an entire world-system whose ground was bespread with spears and sharp-pointed bamboo sticks, or wade across an entire world-system filled with water, or cut his way through an entire world-system choked with thorny bamboo plants, — he would reply: "I can do that."

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/8_cond ... asambuddha

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MissGredelin
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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by MissGredelin » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:46 am

:anjali: Ok. First I like to thank you for your reply.

And secondly I am sorry that the anjali smilies are not really expressing my sincerity.

Thirdly I doubted very long about ever posting this thread

A question that's always been on my mind as a respons to the first answers is: why does the discussions have to get heated? Why clinging onto this? Why not a peaceful coexsitens? But I have also let go of chasing after this ideal for peaceful co existens a long time ago. It's not worth the chase.

And as an respons to the second reply. "It's a question about how you view it" I'm very aware that there are a lot of views on this matter at the moment. All I do on my spare time is read about it and meditate. But today after posting this thread I just felt like dropping the confusion and worries of not having a right view. I'm sick and tired of it. It just beings about a lot of stress not knowing who is viewing things correctly.

As a respons to the third answer. I'm well aware that the patients cure themselfs and that, in the end, a doctor can not really heal. As well as a tree will grow only if it has the conditions to grow. But still there are both doctors and gardeners in this world. Some still thinking that they have some kind of magic wand. Some humble to the fact that there is no magic only good and bad soil. :anjali:
Life is no competition, and never will be. It takes time to reveal all your thoughts about self, delusions, greed, hate and attachments. Don't take life too seriously, you will never get out of it alive.

May all sentinent beings be free from suffering.
May their practice show them the way.
May they all be happy.

char101
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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by char101 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:10 pm

Major sects of Buddhism have different literatures other than the Pali Tipitaka which is used by the Theravada sect. This is where the teachings become fundamentally different. These are not Buddhism with different styles or interpretation, these are different Buddhisms. That is why we can't mix and match some teachings from different sects.

Chanh Dao
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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by Chanh Dao » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:29 pm

char101 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:10 pm
Major sects of Buddhism have different literatures other than the Pali Tipitaka which is used by the Theravada sect. This is where the teachings become fundamentally different. These are not Buddhism with different styles or interpretation, these are different Buddhisms. That is why we can't mix and match some teachings from different sects.
This isn't the understanding within the monastic community as i know it. Buddhas teaching as the 8 fold path, the 4 noble truths, dependent origination etc is shared by all major schools of buddhism.

This is in fact the heart of the Buddhist teachings.

Buddhism is not like christianity or judaism.

The tripitaka is not in anyway like the bible for Buddhists.


Buddhism is a non-dual tradition focused on the cessation of suffering and the realization of total and complete freedom.

Letting go of all attachments. Including attachments to words and phrases you find most true.

All of this must be dropped away if we wish to truly enter into jhana and practice enlightenment.

I encourage you to practice in this way.

Sadhu sadhu sadhu
👍

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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:07 pm

Chanh Dao wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:29 pm
char101 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:10 pm
Major sects of Buddhism have different literatures other than the Pali Tipitaka which is used by the Theravada sect. This is where the teachings become fundamentally different. These are not Buddhism with different styles or interpretation, these are different Buddhisms. That is why we can't mix and match some teachings from different sects.


Buddhism is a non-dual tradition
This may be the case in Mahayana, but its is very clearly not in the EBTs, so its best not to make general, cross buddhism statements, because the traditions, while having a similar core, vary quite differently in their interpretation and practice of that core, in addition to the things added on in later years.

Char is not wholly incorrect in thinking them as different Buddhisms, in many ways they are. The Buddha of the EBTs can be quite different then the Buddha of later works, and even contradictory. It is also important to remember that " Buddhism" is a modern western invention, these various traditions did indeed grow in their own little corners of Asia with a little overlap on the boarders. They were not part of some vast whole called " Buddhism" as we tend to think of it in modern terms.


I view the various Buddhist traditions in the same vein of my the judeo-christian tradition I was born into. Jews, Christians, and Muslims share some very common core structure and world views, but from there vary greatly in how those structures and views are interpreted and practiced, very similar to Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana.
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Chanh Dao
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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by Chanh Dao » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:47 pm

:goodpost:
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:07 pm
Chanh Dao wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:29 pm
char101 wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:10 pm
Major sects of Buddhism have different literatures other than the Pali Tipitaka which is used by the Theravada sect. This is where the teachings become fundamentally different. These are not Buddhism with different styles or interpretation, these are different Buddhisms. That is why we can't mix and match some teachings from different sects.


Buddhism is a non-dual tradition
This may be the case in Mahayana, but its is very clearly not in the EBTs, so its best not to make general, cross buddhism statements, because the traditions, while having a similar core, vary quite differently in their interpretation and practice of that core, in addition to the things added on in later years.

Char is not wholly incorrect in thinking them as different Buddhisms, in many ways they are. The Buddha of the EBTs can be quite different then the Buddha of later works, and even contradictory. It is also important to remember that " Buddhism" is a modern western invention, these various traditions did indeed grow in their own little corners of Asia with a little overlap on the boarders. They were not part of some vast whole called " Buddhism" as we tend to think of it in modern terms.


I view the various Buddhist traditions in the same vein of my the judeo-christian tradition I was born into. Jews, Christians, and Muslims share some very common core structure and world views, but from there vary greatly in how those structures and views are interpreted and practiced, very similar to Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana.


Well said 🙏🙏🙏

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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:07 pm

Please see The Great Chronicles of the Buddhas (The Commentary on the Cariyāpiṭaka) by Sayādaw U Vicittasārābhivaṃsa.

I think the Sayādaw knew rather more about the Theravāda teachings than most of us.
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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by seeker242 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:58 pm

"The Basic Points Unifying the Theravada and the Mahayana" is worth a read. :anjali:

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/9_poin ... d_Mahayana

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MissGredelin
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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by MissGredelin » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:30 pm

:anjali: I'm reading this at the moment, https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... of-buddhas, this is the reason of this thread. You see this book was gifted to the venerable ananda mayitreya thera before he died, and you can read more about this facinating bikkhu in this post on access to insight

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... i/bam.html

But anyway.. Had a great samadhi today at the temple. Going to sleep now. Night night.

:anjali:
Life is no competition, and never will be. It takes time to reveal all your thoughts about self, delusions, greed, hate and attachments. Don't take life too seriously, you will never get out of it alive.

May all sentinent beings be free from suffering.
May their practice show them the way.
May they all be happy.

Chanh Dao
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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by Chanh Dao » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:23 am

One thing that I thing is important to mention and to emphasize is that the actual path and practice of buddhism is far more experiential than conceptual.

So as a thought example.

Say you are a Christian and you do good deeds live a good life than you go to heaven meet got etc. Than you will see God and jesus and all that for eternity. The story and framework of the religion are the inherent practice and expression of that religion. Its beginning and its end are all encompassed by the holy texts and the experience is in fact laid out and defined by that text.



Buddhism as the buddha taught it however is different.

Enlightenment and realization are totally and completely based off of direct experiential realization into the nature of reality.

They are not based messengers from other lands or the discovered or written down holy texts.

The spiritual experiences and truths that define the very heart of the buddhas teachings all come from direct experience into your nature.

Something like dependent origination, the 4 noble truths, and the 8 fold path make this uncomprehendingly clear.

The nature of the teachings of the practice and embodiment of realization, of awakening, of experiential knowledge and application of the 4 noble truths, the 8 fold path, and dependent origination.

A great example of the religious and attachment based view on this versus the reality of the buddha dharma on this can be shown with something like rebirth.

Oh how we would debate and debate about rebirth all the sutras the different perspectives etc etc.

But all that is based on ignorance!

Cut off ignorance and dependent origination stops in its tracts.

It's a very subtle religion, it's a practical religion, but most importantly it's an all inclusive religion based around best practices of the human mind as tested, observed, and realized by individual beings.

Namo Buddhaya.

I take refuge in the buddha.
I take refuge in the Dhamma.
I take refuge in the sangha.

So the path is taken one step at a time.

Practice compassion.
Burn attachment with the fire of mindfulness.

Clinging is the root cause.

Cling to anything and the causation will lead to birth and death, to suffering.

We can be mindful of absolutely anything and everything without clinging to it.

In this way we discuss the dhamma as the buddha intended.

🙏👋👍🙏

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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by tamdrin » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:47 am

The one thing I don't hear talked about in Theravada texts that is talked about a lot in Mahayana and Vajrayana is the motivation of Bodhicitta. bodhi = enlightenment, citta=mind. The motivation with which one does ones spiritual practice is crucial in determining whether ones path will be hinayana or Mahayana. To practice bodhicitta you must first cultivate the four immeasurables especially lovingkindness and compassion, and on that basis one may cultivate bodhicitta which is the wish to become a buddha for the benefit of all sentient beings. Then, all ones practice is done with this motivation.

char101
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Re: A monastics thoughts of the path of the bodisattva

Post by char101 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:02 am

The objects of loving kindness, compassion, and sympathetic joy is a being which is under the view of atta. That is why only upekkha is part of the 37 bodhipakkhiya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhipakk ... hamm%C4%81).

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