Mom dejected about my decision to ordain

[viriya424]

I appreciate everyone's advice up to this point and it's definitely given me some food for thought. But I'd like to bring the discussion back to the issue with my mom, which is the main factor here, regardless of whether I ordain soon or after getting a degree, I intend to try at some point, and that's what she isn't taking well despite not wanting to hold me back at the same time.

[JamesTheGiant]

My mother was reassured when I told her 95% of Westerner monks eventually disrobed and returned to working life. I think that information enabled her to see it as a phase i was going through. Maybe your mum could think the same.

Also you can say to her you'll always love her no matter what, and will write every month.

[JamesTheGiant]

Also, you know there's a halfway compromise too? You could remain a layman and do university while taking the 5 precepts really seriously, and do the 8 precepts every Sunday.
Go to a monastery or retreat every holiday (there's a new one in Brasil I think?) And have a meditation practise of 2x one hour per day plus sutta reading.
And start a Buddhist Society at the University.

[Polar Bear]

I would also like to be able to teach her Dhamma properly because I think she might get something out of it, and we all know that's a better reward than anything else I could give her, and also a better use for my life. But I just can't feel at ease knowing that I'm causing her to suffer so much, even if I know she shouldn't be. How do people who ordain deal with issues like this?

Technically, from a Buddhist perspective, it’s her attachment to you that causes her to suffer when you leave, not your leaving itself. I’m not a monastic but from reading and listening I’ve gathered that there is a variety of ways monastics deal with their mothers, from totally abandoning them to living with them and taking care of them in old age until they die. Bhikkhus Nanavira and Nanavimala, westerners ordained in Sri Lanka, iirc, didn’t have much or any contact with folks back home, while the western Bhikkhus Anālayo and Viradhammo took care of their parents in old age.

The Buddha himself left his parents even though they were weeping:

Before my self-awakening, when I was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: ‘Household life is confining, a dusty path. Life gone forth is the open air. It isn’t easy, living in a home, to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell. What if I, having shaved off my hair & beard and putting on the ochre robe, were to go forth from the household life into homelessness?’
“So at a later time, when I was still young, black-haired, endowed with the blessings of youth in the first stage of life, having shaved off my hair & beard—though my parents wished otherwise and were grieving with tears on their faces—I put on the ochre robe and went forth from the home life into homelessness.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN36.html

Later on after ordaining his own son without the mother’s permission and receiving a bunch of complaints he laid down the rule requiring permission.

It seems it can be a complicated thing, dealing with one’s parents when ordaining. You should be prepared for the possibility that no matter how much you try to reduce your mother’s sadness about you ordaining, she will be sad for an indefinite length of time. You should figure out how much you plan to be in contact with her through letters etc and then formulate whatever way you think best to ease her into accepting your decision. Also, you might investigate your attachment to your mother, since one must give that up to realize complete nibbana. That being said, you might still return to help your mom out even with no attachment to her, like Sariputta did. That’s if you realize nibbana though, otherwise you’ll go see her or keep in touch because you care about her in the normal way people do.

[DooDoot]

I've been quite blessed in the intellectual department and have always been, and still am (currently in uni) the best in my class, and I would argue it wouldn't be such hard work for me to finish the degree either.

In respect to your considerations, I would make the monk timeframe the same as the university time frame, i.e., 5 years maximum. I think you would discover within 5 years (or sooner) whether or not the monk life is right for you. Of course, this can depend on your personal disposition. Once you get into the monks system, many senior monks may try to make you the object of their personal agendas (thus, for some young monks, they get dragged along by the institutionalisation of the system). However, if you have an independent mind, you should discover within 5 years (or sooner) whether or not the monks life is right for you.

But I just can't feel at ease knowing that I'm causing her to suffer so much, even if I know she shouldn't be. How do people who ordain deal with issues like this?

In the Buddha's time, many men left home and never saw their family again. We don't worry about our mother's emotional reactions if we wish to ordain. Of Gotama, the suttas say:

So, at a later time, while still young, a black-haired young man endowed with the blessings of youth in the first stage of life — and while my parents, unwilling, were crying with tears streaming down their faces — I shaved off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robe and went forth from the home life into homelessness

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

However, since we live in an era of world-wide communication: (i) don't sound so serious & fixed to your mother; (ii) treat your monk adventure like a holiday; and (iii) tell your mother you will telephone her once per month or every two months. If you find the monk life suitable for you, your mother can visit you on a holiday. If, after 10 years, you have realization & good training, you can return to your homeland, be a monk there & open a Dhamma centre there.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

I appreciate everyone's advice up to this point and it's definitely given me some food for thought. But I'd like to bring the discussion back to the issue with my mom, which is the main factor here, regardless of whether I ordain soon or after getting a degree, I intend to try at some point, and that's what she isn't taking well despite not wanting to hold me back at the same time.

Those in the world are attached to the world.

Invariably, they cannot comprehend any form of "opting out" from that, that is not equivalent either to suicide or being a "bum".

You cannot see for her, but you can try your best to explain. Whether that will work depends on how much "dust" is covering her eyes. It may or may not work.

Nonethless, if you're going to transcend the world, you're also going to have to transcend worldly considerations.

Also, FWIW, if you do follow the "finish the degree" path, be wary of any new entanglements... it sounds like you have enough existing ones to contend with.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul.

[viriya424]

Also, you might investigate your attachment to your mother, since one must give that up to realize complete nibbana.

I guess what keeps me from disregarding it as "just another attachment" is this sutta:

“I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two?

Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there [on your shoulders], you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment: To this extent one pays & repays one’s mother & father.“

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN2_31.html

I think I might be using the idea of having to repay her as an excuse to maintain my attachment to her. But I think if one decides to get technical, the Buddha doesn't say here that one must repay one's parents, but that this is the only way that one could. I should certainly dwell on this.

[viriya424]

However, since we live in an era of world-wide communication: (i) don't sound so serious & fixed to your mother; (ii) treat your monk adventure like a holiday; and (iii) tell your mother you will telephone her once per month or every two months. If you find the monk life suitable for you, your mother can visit you on a holiday.

Well, I think it's a bit too late for #1... Serious and fixed tends to be how I come across, and maybe that's why she doesn't really think it's "just a phase", even though she's tried to claim that sometimes. She knows all too well that I'm not the type to be casual with things.
And about

If, after 10 years, you have realization & good training, you can return to your homeland, be a monk there & open a Dhamma centre there.

I've actually thought about that too. Plenty of forests and such for a good, secluded monastery where I come from. The only thing missing is any significant Buddhist population, but we'll see...

[viriya424]

Nonethless, if you're going to transcend the world, you're also going to have to transcend worldly considerations.

Also, FWIW, if you do follow the "finish the degree" path, be wary of any new entanglements... it sounds like you have enough existing ones to contend with.

Couldn't agree more. I don't know why but for some reason I wasn't seeing my relationship with her as a worldly consideration anymore. It's remarkable that as my practice has improved, I've begun to care more about my parents (and less about everything else), whereas before I might have turned a deaf ear to their wishes. Could Mara be looking for more ways to sneak in? Who knows...

[Volo]

But I just can't feel at ease knowing that I'm causing her to suffer so much, even if I know she shouldn't be. How do people who ordain deal with issues like this?

My suggestion: if you are 100% sure you want to ordain, then do it. Try to minimize your mom's suffering as much as you can, but unfortunately some suffering for her due to this is unavoidable. Very often people don't approve what we do. They might be right, they might be wrong, but the life is ours and we have to live it by ourselves even making our own mistakes. Although if you have doubts about becoming a monk, then I also would suggest not to rush.

Concerning the suggestions to wait, to get a degree, etc: Having a plan B in case of disrobing, like a degree, savings or property might be the very reason why your monastic life would fail. By that you create a temptation for yourself, with which you would need to fight every time you get a problem (and you would probably have many of them because monastic life is not easy). The beauty of monastic life is that you have much less control over your life and can surrender yourself to impermanence.

[binocular]

Especially since (don't get me wrong, hate bragging) I've been quite blessed in the intellectual department and have always been, and still am (currently in uni) the best in my class, and I would argue it wouldn't be such hard work for me to finish the degree either.

If you're already so far along and if the schoolwork isn't all that hard for you, then finish the degree.

This can also make you more credible in the eyes of your prospective abbot/preceptor because you'll be the young man who keeps his promises, completes his duties. So that you won't be just another dropout.

[Antaradhana]

If you have a lot of doubts, it is better to postpone the ordination. If they are not there, then do what you see fit without listening to those who discourage you. Any worldly skills that you supposedly miss if you return to worldly life, etc. - it's all empty.

On the subject of your love and affection for the mother, and her love and affection for you https://suttacentral.net/ud8.8/en/anandajoti

[binocular]

If you have a lot of doubts, it is better to postpone the ordination.

A man who is fit and ready to ordain wouldn't be asking in an online forum whether he should ordain or not.

[Antaradhana]

If you have a lot of doubts, it is better to postpone the ordination.

A man who is fit and ready to ordain wouldn't be asking in an online forum whether he should ordain or not.

Yes. It does not happen that a person has no doubts while he is not yet Arya. But we cannot know how strong a person is in doubt; he himself must determine his own destiny. To discourage a person from ordination is not good anyway, especially for the sake of receiving worldly goods.

[salayatananirodha]

I support your decision to ordain! The world will still be here if you "fail"