What are the ways in which a monk can disrobe or be disrobed?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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AgarikaJ
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Re: What are the ways in which a monk can disrobe or be disrobed?

Post by AgarikaJ »

pilgrim wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:46 am :anjali: How does that work if a bhikkhu also takes ordination with Mahayana/Tibetan sangha? Do Theravada sanghas still recognise him?
This is one of the main issues with recent Bhikkhuni ordinations by the Western Australia Sangha; the lineage was Dharmaguptaka, not purely Theravada, one reason at least for the Thai Sangha not to recognize those nuns. Other Theravada Sanghas do have less issues with them.

There are therefore different viewpoints to the need for specific formalities and the need to hold extremely strict to an orthodox reading of the canon; in Thailand, until 1902 nobody batted an eyelid when seeing a "fully ordained" Theravada nun and even in the Thai Forest Sangha were teachers who fully ordained women during most recent years -- they only did not do their utmost to squeeze the nose of the Supreme council in it after having explained their opposition to such a thing.

Edit, to clarify: the teachers of the Thai Forest Sangha I am talking about here were Thai and fully unconnected to the recent brouhaha created by Ajahn Brahm.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
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Dhammanando
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Re: What are the ways in which a monk can disrobe or be disrobed?

Post by Dhammanando »

Volo wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:24 am Is this rule (about going to other religion = pārājika) in Vinaya or in the Commentary?
The absolute prohibition against ordaining a titthiyapakkantaka is from the Vinaya's Mahāvagga, but with no definition, nor even the slightest clue, as to what such a person might be. The definition (including the identifying of such persons as de facto pārājika) is from the Vinaya Atthakathā.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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Volo
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Re: What are the ways in which a monk can disrobe or be disrobed?

Post by Volo »

Dhammanando wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:26 amThe definition (including the identifying of such persons as de facto pārājika) is from the Vinaya Atthakathā.
:anjali:. Thanks, bhante
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Re: What are the ways in which a monk can disrobe or be disrobed?

Post by Dhammanando »

pilgrim wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:46 am How does that work if a bhikkhu also takes ordination with Mahayana/Tibetan sangha? Do Theravada sanghas still recognise him?
It's a matter that seems to be differently dealt with from one nikāya to another. So, depending on the nikāya the consequences might be:

1. None at all — the man continues to be treated as a Theravādin bhikkhu in good standing.
2. Expulsion from membership of the nikāya but not from bhikkhuhood.
3. Treatment as a titthiyapakkantaka.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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