Discord within the Sangha

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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retrofuturist
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Discord within the Sangha

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I would like to put forward a hypothetical scenario, in the hope of exploring and better understanding how discord is managed within the "doctrine and the discipline"...

Let's say that a certain monk was conducting themselves in a manner which, by and large, was in conformity with the Vinaya. However, there was another monk, who disapproved of the initial monk's conduct, and ultimately left the Sangha as a result.

Two lines of inquiry, to pursue:

- Does this scenario constitute "a problem"? Is there blame to be attributed, and is there an issue to be resolved... or is what is described merely part and parcel of the broad spectrum of human social interaction?

- To the extent that there is an issue, or problem, where does any blame lie, and/or where does ownership for the resolution of the issue lie? It is with the first monk, the second monk, the Buddha's Vinaya, elders within that community (either individually as preceptors, maha-theras, head bhikkhu, or as a collective), or does it lie elsewhere?

Although the specific situation I present above is hypothetical, I have no doubt that such issues do indeed confront monastic communities, and I am interested to know how they are, and should be, addressed. Any perspectives substantiated by Sutta or Vinaya references, would be especially appreciated.

Thank you.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Volo
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Re: Discord within the Sangha

Post by Volo »

So you are saying that one monk is acting in accordance with Vinaya, but the other monk disrobes because of that? Then it is obviously the second monk's problem.

If the first monk does something wrong, something against Vinaya (or the second monk thinks it is against Vinaya), then it's also not a reason to disrobe, the second monk should simply leave this monastery if other monks don't want to take any actions against a "bad" monk. Unless, of course, the second monk simply wants to disrobe and just looks for a good excuse. But then it's also his problem, but the first monk is to be blamed for not following the Vinaya.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Discord within the Sangha

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Volo,

Thanks for the comments.

What about the variation on the scenario that you describe, where the second monk undertakes the less drastic measure of simply changing monasteries... would that change your assessment of fault and issue status?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Volo
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Re: Discord within the Sangha

Post by Volo »

There is nothing wrong in changing monasteries even if the monks in the first monastery are good and diligent. Buddha in general didn't recommend to stay for too long in one place.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Discord within the Sangha

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Volo,

Thank you, I appreciate you sharing your perspective.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Discord within the Sangha

Post by AgarikaJ »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:28 am by and large, was in conformity with the Vinaya
The loss of a monastic member would need to be taken quite seriously. One changing monasteries however, there I agree with the previous posters, would be a rather appropriate way to get distance between two individuals.

Maybe it would help analyzing your scenario, if you could expand on the supposed 'conformity with the Vinaya'. From many discussions on here and by observing actual practice, it is apparent that even the Vinaya is open to many interpretations.

Did the monk disrobing (or alternatively changing monasteries) share the opinion that the Vinaya was adhered to and if yes, why did he still disapprove? Was there maybe additional personal animosity, so true adherence to rules was not the actual issue?

I think with finding the answer, only then can a mitigation of those circumstances be looked for, either in participation with the two monks, or at least so that similar situations are avoided in the future.

Blame as such should not come into it at all; if the Vinaya was broken, the monastic community has the appropriate tools. If it is a personality conflict it could be quite a lot more complicated to get to the ground of it, but even there one would hope that reason would follow one or a series of clearing talks.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]
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Re: Discord within the Sangha

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Agarika,
AgarikaJ wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:42 am Did the monk disrobing (or alternatively changing monasteries) share the opinion that the Vinaya was adhered to and if yes, why did he still disapprove? Was there maybe additional personal animosity, so true adherence to rules was not the actual issue?
Well, as I said from the outset, it's a hypothetical scenario to examine how interpersonal discord is addressed in the Sangha. In that spirit, feel free to vary the scenario in any way you like that enables that theme to be explored further...
AgarikaJ wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:42 am If it is a personality conflict it could be quite a lot more complicated to get to the ground of it, but even there one would hope that reason would follow one or a series of clearing talks.
Which brings us back to the issue in the original post about who owns or is responsible for instigating measures to manage that personality conflict?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Discord within the Sangha

Post by JamesTheGiant »

At Bodhinyana we were often reminded not to worry about the actions of any other bhikkhu, even if they were bending vinaya. (Which was very rare)

A serious or flagrant breach had to be reported of course, and an appropriate response would be taken by the senior monks.
But in general the recommendation was just to keep our heads down and our attention on our own things.

In my experience it's quite common for monks to change monasteries for various reasons. Among them being conflict with another monk or disagreement or disapproval of their standards of vinaya.
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Re: Discord within the Sangha

Post by JohnK »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:46 am ...who owns or is responsible for instigating measures to manage that personality conflict?
This depends on who is even aware of the situation (the group "awareness context" so to speak).
If it is just the "offended" person, he is the only one who could be responsible to do something about it. He might suck it up and use the situation to see his own reactivity. He might decide to do something else like leave (w/o changing the awareness context). He might report the situation to his teacher (the abbot). This changes the "awareness context." The abbot then has some options regarding the awareness context. He might keep it at the two of them and offer some advice to the "offended" person, and he might "keep an eye on" the other party to see what is going on. He then might (or might not) choose to get the "offending" party into the loop.
Or, the "offended" person might not tell the abbot, but choose to change the awareness context by telling a friend and asking advice. Or he might tell the "offending" party.
It seems that all who are aware of the situation are responsible for their own reactions and decisions regarding what to do or not do about it, including whether or not they choose to change the awareness context.
This may or may not be helpful to the discussion, but it is where my mind went with it so far.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: Discord within the Sangha

Post by AgarikaJ »

There are so many possible permutations of problems within a social group that is bound together in a close space; the military solves it with a strict hierarchy, the Buddha resorted to the Vinaya.

To resolve social problems within a group, it is generally important to have trusted people higher up in the hierarchy one can go back for advice (and for impartial mediation), and as much communication between members as possible (preferrably in fixed intervals, to give those events structure).

This is how Ajahn Chah sorted those issues (according to 'Stillness Flowing')... niggling and conflicts between monks was not unusual it seems:
p. 668
The first time householders listened to Luang Por give a Dhamma talk or went to ask him for advice, they were usually surprised at the accuracy and penetration of his insights into family life. It seemed common sense to most people that the causes and conditions underlying family conflicts were specific to householders, and impenetrable to a monk who had never married or had the experience of raising a family himself.

But leading a large community over a period of many years allowed Luang Por to accumulate a great deal of understanding of the problems that can arise in human relationships. The kind of conflicts that arose in a monastery were not as far removed from those in a family as might be expected. Moreover, the wisdom that arises from cultivation of the Eightfold Path had given Luang Por a comprehensive knowledge of causality in its many modes, including an understanding of the relationships between mental states and behaviour – both destructive and constructive.

On one occasion, a visitor was bemoaning her lot and told Luang Por how lucky he was not to have a family, with all of the tangled problems that it entailed. He replied:

"I do have a family here in the monastery, and it’s a big one."
Of course there is always the pure theory, that monastics should indeed stand above small personality issues:
p. 544
On one such occasion, he [Ajahn Chah] began – as was his custom – by emphasizing the importance of living together in harmony, of how important it was that the foreign monks related to each other according to the conventions laid down in the Vinaya. He instructed them that, as a group of samaṇas, they should put behind them all consciousness of different skin colour, language and culture, and look on each other with kindness and respect, as companions in the Holy Life.

They should train themselves in speaking to each other mindfully:

If any problem comes up in the group, then speak about it in a skilful way: ‘I see it like this.’ ‘I feel like this.’ And then listen to what the other person has to say.

The Western monks should learn to listen with an open mind, both to the words of others and to their own thoughts. When a view or opinion arose in their mind, they should be aware of it as simply that – a view, an opinion – and remind themselves that, as yet, they did not, in fact, know whether it accurately reflected the truth of things.

The mind was the measure of the effectiveness of their practice. If they were experiencing mental suffering, that meant that they had deviated from the Dhamma and allowed craving to arise.

In community life, devotion to the Dhamma and Vinaya would dissolve all sense of conflict and bring a feeling of unity in diversity.
In reality, bringing geographical distance between conflicting parties is the true and tried method to go beyond unsurmountable personality clashes:
p. 473
Luang Por said that going by yourself [on tudong] can be lonely; going with a friend is good. Two is a good number. But if three or four go together, it’s too much, and it often leads to complications and turmoil ... He cautioned me about conflicts with fellow monks and advised me to be patient.

If you go with a group of five monks for more than a month or two, there’s usually only one or two left by the end.

The combination of tiredness and harsh surroundings gives rise to arguments about things like the route or the place to rest. Some monks can be forgetful; they leave things behind and have to go back for them, which annoys their friends. There are many problems, particularly with shortages of requisites.
This all reflects very much what others have already posted in this thread.

To my mind, the main tool the Buddha gave us to minimize social conflict situations is the fourth Precept. It is, at least for me, maybe the most difficult precept to observe, as it is an appellation to change our most deeply ingrained habits of getting to be right and having the last word: we humans are social animals and through speech, we often define our place in the overall hierarchy. Therefore, talking to others is often not just communication, but also a fight for position.

Maybe, therefore, this additional point made by Ajahn Chah: minimize actually talking with others, as it will rile up your mind:
p. 278
One succinct teaching that Luang Por’s disciples had drummed into them from the beginning of their monastic life and came to sum up the values of Wat Pah Pong was:

"Eat little. Sleep little. Talk little. Practise a lot."

The dangers of gossip and frivolous speech crop up, either directly or indirectly, in a number of the Sangha Regulations. Luang Por maintained that practice would only really develop when monks were ready to face up to suffering and learn from it. Idle conversation was a prime means by which monks sought to suppress or distract themselves from suffering. That was not its only drawback. The topics of idle conversations stirred up the defilements of all involved. Socializing for frivolous purposes often led to dissension, and it undermined the harmony of the Sangha:

"Of all the detrimental activities that I’ve seen since I’ve been living in the forest, none is worse than monks gathering together for frivolous conversation. This has the most harmful results. But it’s also the thing that monks and novices find hardest to abstain from. It’s right here that things go wrong.
I don’t see it having any benefit: it damages your practice, your work. It’s unfitting and after it’s over it gives rise to remorse. There’s nothing good about it. This is where things have gone wrong in the past – right here. When you get together like this, then your speech becomes exaggerated, you start talking nonsense, laughing and teasing each other – all kinds of foolishness appear.
In a group, you start joking and playing around, then your mind becomes agitated. You don’t realize how loud your voice is because you have no self-awareness, you’re lost in the pleasure of it all."
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]
dharmacorps
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Re: Discord within the Sangha

Post by dharmacorps »

It sounds like kind of a silly reason to disrobe to me. Like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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