Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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JamesTheGiant
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Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Chanh Dao wrote: Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:29 am As a foreigner I would expect you to pay money to go through ordination.
Don't do this! By all means give a donation to the Wat, but the Buddha didn't do this, no Western wats do this, and basically it's a modern Thai way of making cash for the monks presiding at the ceremony.

In the past I've seen this, and the senior monks divide the cash up between them. It does NOT go to the temple fund, it goes straight into the pockets of the monks. The upachaya gets most, and the lesser ones according to status.

And do not handle money as a bhikkhu! If you do this, you are corrupt. Not handling money is one of the main ways in which a bhikkhu is different from a layperson.
If you need to handle money, then the conditions are not right for you to be a bhikkhu. Yes, i understand 95% of Thai monks handle money but that doesn't make it right. It just shows how far genuine Buddhism has fallen in Thailand.
Chanh Dao
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by Chanh Dao »

I don't agree. It's a modern world we are in a modern context.

Handling money in certain occasions and circumstances is acceptable.

Saying that monks who handle money are not good monks is painting with far too broad a brush.

Just my opinion.

I think there is a cultural tradition and a Dharmic tradition.

The Buddha taught the Dharma and adapted to the cultural conditions and instructed his monks accordingly.

Now the cultural conditions are different.

Monks are acting accordingly.

Just my view as a very new monk.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Ok, and what other patimokka rules would you like to delete? All the minor rules?
Maybe get rid of the sanghadisesas too, so you can masturbate?

This is a perfect example of the decline of the sasana, the ending of the age of this Buddha's teachings.

My apologies for my tone of disrespect Venerable, but this kind of thing really pisses me off.

Recently I was talking to a well educated and very very rich businessman from Bangkok. He owns factories and a whole apartment building right in Bangkok.
We talked about the time when he was a monk for nine months, and he asked me how much money I made when I was a monk. He went on to say that he was given several thousand dollars every month on his pindabat through one of the richest areas of Bangkok. He said he bought presents for his family and girlfriend, and came out of being a monk with a profit exceeding what he would have gotten working his normal job.
When I said the monks at my monastery didn't accept money, he looked at me pityingly, like I'd just admitted to being very stupid.

Buddhism in Thailand is in a state of profound corruption, and there's a deep lack of understanding what the Dharma really is.

Don't be a part of that. Read the patimokka. Follow the rules.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by JamesTheGiant »

"So headman, gold, silver, and money are not allowable for those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince.
Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince do not consent to gold, silver, or money.
Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince do not accept gold, silver, or money.
Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince have renounced gold and gems and are without money.

`Headman, for whoever gold, silver, or money are allowable then for him the five types of sense pleasure are allowable.
For whoever the five types of sense pleasure are allowable you can be certain, “He does not possess the nature of a monk, he does not possess the nature of a son of the Sakyan prince.”


`Headman, really I say this, “By a monk who needs grass, grass can be searched for. For a monk who needs timber, timber can be searched for. For a monk who needs a cart, a cart can be searched for.” But, headman, I also say, “In no way whatsoever can gold, silver, or money be accepted or searched for.”′

Maniculaka Sutta
That's one. There are a LOT more.
Do you want me to get started?
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Chanh Dao wrote: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:23 am The
Venerable Chanh Dao, I apologize for my harsh words last night. I could have put it better and been more polite.
And besides, it is better to be a monk who handles money from time to time, than no monk at all. It is excellent to be a bhikkhu even if the rules are bent sometimes.
I wish you all the best, and please dedicate a chant for me at morning or evening puja!' :anjali:
James.
Chanh Dao
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Chanh Dao »

Ha no worries. I nap too much and don't live near the rich areas of Bangkok so that kind of corruption is unlikely to affect me.

Interesting take on the whole situation.

:namaste:
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by salayatananirodha »

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .yaho.html
the dhamma isn't subject to time; james's sutta on money hasn't changed with time
I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
Chanh Dao
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Chanh Dao »

Of course many precepts are subject to time and local culture.

Things like not have a rug of goats hair. Etc etc.

Precepts are not absolute rules they are guidelines for living a life of practice.

Buddha was a very chilled and laid back groovy dude.

Many of the precepts are not relavent in modern times and of course the situation is different. We have no Buddha.

We are not wandering around with the Buddha in India.

In some climates it is cold and monks would freeze and die if they did not build a fire.

Etc etc etc.

The vinaya has very direct Dharmic guidelines but it also has cultural guidelines.

Sometimes the most compassionate thing to do is to break these guidelines.

I am a monk in Thailand.
santa100
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by santa100 »

Chanh Dao wrote:I nap too much and don't live near the rich areas of Bangkok so that kind of corruption is unlikely to affect me.
Actually this was the exact quote responsible for so many monks' future downfall. Why? Because they let their guard down. There's a common stock phrase being used in many suttas about the proper attitude of those gone forth:
"'Monks, dwell consummate in virtue, consummate in terms of the Patimokkha. Dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in your behavior & sphere of activity. Train yourselves, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said."
Remember, the devas can pick you, a monk, out from thousands of householders because of what you're wearing and the oath you've sworn to upkeep during the ordination ceremony. If a monk was reprimanded just for sniffing a flower (see SN 9.14), how much more so if he commits grosser offenses? Don't treat the handling of cash as a joke. It's the fastest way to open the door to so much corruptions down the line, because as they said, money can buy almost everything. Also, don't give in to "peers pressure". Just because the majority of monks in your Wat handle money doesn't mean that's the right thing to do and you should do it too. If you can't help sealing up the Dhamma Drum, at least try not to drive any more peg deeper into it.
Chanh Dao
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Chanh Dao »

Very interesting views here.

I'm a bit more loose and open about my views.

I for one encourage monks to sniff flowers and if I saw someone reprimand a fellow monk for sniffing a flower I would reprimand the reprimander.
santa100
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by santa100 »

Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:12 pm Very interesting views here.

I'm a bit more loose and open about my views.

I for one encourage monks to sniff flowers and if I saw someone reprimand a fellow monk for sniffing a flower I would reprimand the reprimander.
Hey Chanh Dao, why did you become a monk? What's the point of doing it if you simply try to conduct business as usual? Actually, it's worse than biz as usual because all the stuff you said you've been doing so far is actually driving so many "pegs" into the Dhamma Drum! The devas probably already gave up on reprimanding you, but other people will.
Chanh Dao
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Chanh Dao »

I become monk to end suffering.

I don't see the Pali Canon as any kind of holy Bible.

Simply the closest thing we have to the Buddha's words pertaining to his intentional community of monks/followers.

I don't believe in any kind of supernatural entities, God's, goddesses, etc.

My practice focus is compassion and samadhi.

I use the vinaya and the Monastic order I am a part of to practice and cultivate compassion and samadhi.
santa100
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by santa100 »

Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:19 pm I become monk to end suffering.

I don't see the Pali Canon as any kind of holy Bible.

Simply the closest thing we have to the Buddha's words pertaining to his intentional community of monks/followers.

I don't believe in any kind of supernatural entities, God's, goddesses, etc.

My practice focus is compassion and samadhi.

I use the vinaya and the Monastic order I am a part of to practice and cultivate compassion and samadhi.
Frankly, since you don't seem to care about the Vinaya in accordance with the "seeing danger in the slightest fault" spirit, which the Buddha repeatedly taught, all that compassion and samadhi, ending suffering and stuff, are all empty talk. Why? because they have zero foundation (the Vinaya) to build upon. All I said in this thread is out of good intent for you and your fellow monks. I hope you constantly remember the color of the uniform and the oath you've sworn to uphold during your ordination ceremony.
Last edited by santa100 on Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chanh Dao
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Chanh Dao »

Well. Somebody better tell my Monastic order that.

I'm a monk living with other monks in Thailand. I plan to do that for quite some time.

I follow the vinaya as far as I know it and as far as it is applicable in the modern world.

When it comes to things like not recieving a rug made of black goat hair. These kind of precepts are totally and completely cultural and truly we don't even know if the Buddha taught these things.


I recommend being less rigid with your views.
Chanh Dao
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Chanh Dao »

No, that only applies when certain precepts of the vinaya are broken. Things like having sex, killing, stealing, etc.

I reccomend you refrain from defaming monastics in the future.

Peace and love.

:focus:
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